Valentine's day rape
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Re: Valentine's day rape
I'm not sure why you're getting so bogged down with this tangential analogy. It doesn't compute. One is a situation where a woman is absolutely guaranteed to be upset because your intentions were clearly malevolent and you took advantage of her inebriation and the other is an example of you protecting her from her inebriation. As I stated, the lack of consent would probably make that technically a kidnapping... just one where nobody is going to complain the next day because, in their sober state, they will understand you had only positive intentions.LTO wrote:Like the question, my kidnap victim was too drunk or drugged to say whether she wanted to be driven home or not. My decision to drive her home even though she hadn't said one way or the other would likely depend on other factors, such as knowing her. But, of course, that doesn't speak to the question as stated.MekongMouse wrote:If your friend is telling you they do not want to go home, but you drive them home anyway, that would seem to be kidnapping on a technical level. If your friend is very drunk and is saying they do not want to go home, but you do it anyway, I imagine the next morning would thank you because you probably saved them from a lot of trouble. If you take your friend home while she's seeing double and have sex with her, I'm guessing her reaction the next morning will be less thankful, and more enraged...LTO wrote:And just an afterthought since it was in the study when it asked: "Have you ever had sex with a woman or girl when she was too drunk or drugged to say whether she wanted it or not?" If I drive that person home even though they have not consented to being driven home, have I kidnapped that person? Or is there perhaps more to kidnapping than that?MekongMouse wrote:If you have sex with a person who is too drunk or inebriated to consent, it is rape.
Edit: I see now you wrote that she said nothing one way or the other. With that in mind, I would say it is probably not kidnapping. The rest of my points still apply.
Re: Valentine's day rape
The question did not ask whether she said 'no' or not, and that was almost certainly deliberate, because her saying 'no' is not necessarily part of the concept of rape anymore, at least to some more progressive minds. The concept of rape you are talking about, in which she says 'no' but you do it anyway, is something different and much more limited, in part evidenced by how this highly influential study was constructed. I mostly agree with your formulation of what counts as rape, but what your calling 'rape' is not necessarily, as Add Jay said, "what (counts) rape these days," or is at least not limited to that.MekongMouse wrote:The study's wording may have been confusing, but I don't think rape is. You haven't raped your wife if she's not in the mood, but consents. You've raped her if she says "no" but you do it anyway. Some men believe they always have a right to have sex with their wife and that raping her would be impossible because the only answer she's allowed to give is yes. That is how I interpreted that question. Basically, does she have a right to say no? Still, I agree; it is a confusing question.
LTO Cambodia Blog
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
Re: Valentine's day rape
Like I said, it was an afterthought. But it is interesting that you added that I can take her without her saying anything one way or another, and it wouldn't necessarily be kidnapping. Could this be applied to this notion of rape? The study question says nothing about intentions or malevolence, and though that is what the reader of the conclusions of the study is supposed to imagine, that is not what it says. It mentions only that too she is drunk or drugged to say whether she wanted it or not, and says nothing about the intentions of the person having sex with her, the relationship of the people or her actual feelings before, at the time or later. And that is the question that respondents answered.MekongMouse wrote:I'm not sure why you're getting so bogged down with this tangential analogy. It doesn't compute. One is a situation where a woman is absolutely guaranteed to be upset because your intentions were clearly malevolent and you took advantage of her inebriation and the other is an example of you protecting her from her inebriation. As I stated, the lack of consent would probably make that technically a kidnapping... just one where nobody is going to complain the next day because, in their sober state, they will understand you had only positive intentions.
Edit: I see now you wrote that she said nothing one way or the other. With that in mind, I would say it is probably not kidnapping. The rest of my points still apply.
LTO Cambodia Blog
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
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Re: Valentine's day rape
Yes, I'm familiar with the "yes means yes" movement and do think it is quite silly. I think we have a lot of problems with rape in our society that will not in any way be solved by this nonsense since the problems aren't with the lack of laws. I think the intention is to clear up any ambiguity in date rapes, but because those always end in he said / she said anyway, I hardly see the use though because whether or not she said no or whether or not she said yes is still really, really hard to prove. I guess I just wasn't aware that it was that well known or embraced outside of California or university campuses. Most people I know (and I do run in progressive circles) think of rape the way I do.LTO wrote:The question did not ask whether she said 'no' or not, and that was almost certainly deliberate, because her saying 'no' is not necessarily part of the concept of rape anymore, at least to some more progressive minds. The concept of rape you are talking about, in which she says 'no' but you do it anyway, is something different and much more limited, in part evidenced by how this highly influential study was constructed. I mostly agree with your formulation of what counts as rape, but what your calling 'rape' is not necessarily, as Add Jay said, "what (counts) rape these days," or is at least not limited to that.MekongMouse wrote:The study's wording may have been confusing, but I don't think rape is. You haven't raped your wife if she's not in the mood, but consents. You've raped her if she says "no" but you do it anyway. Some men believe they always have a right to have sex with their wife and that raping her would be impossible because the only answer she's allowed to give is yes. That is how I interpreted that question. Basically, does she have a right to say no? Still, I agree; it is a confusing question.
Add Jay has a long history of making vehemently anti-female posts. When he posts something like that, it means something different than if you post something like that. You have no history of misogyny and are a generally thoughtful poster. Add Jay just likes talking about how much he hates women and I felt his comment was more informed by these emotions than any sort of real analysis (since his post lacked any).
Re: Valentine's day rape
It is true that young cambodian go to have sex on Valentineday. To me, i really don't feel that they were raped or whatever. If she doesn't want to have sex with him, why didn't she ask him to bring her home, not continue to hotel or guesthouse.
បើសិនធ្វើចេះ ចេះឲ្យគេកោត បើសិនធ្វើឆោត ឆោតឲ្យគេអាណិត។
If you know a lot, know enough to make them respect you, if you are stupid, be stupid enough so they can pity you.
If you know a lot, know enough to make them respect you, if you are stupid, be stupid enough so they can pity you.
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Re: Valentine's day rape
Like I said, I don't find the concept of rape confusing, but did find the study poorly worded. I'm not defending the study; I'm defending my view on what constitutes rape and how that is a very easily defined subject.LTO wrote:Like I said, it was an afterthought. But it is interesting that you added that I can take her without her saying anything one way or another, and it wouldn't necessarily be kidnapping. Could this be applied to this notion of rape? The study question says nothing about intentions or malevolence, and though that is what the reader of the conclusions of the study is supposed to imagine, that is not what it says. It mentions only that too she is drunk or drugged to say whether she wanted it or not, and says nothing about the intentions of the person having sex with her, the relationship of the people or her actual feelings before, at the time or later. And that is the question that respondents answered.MekongMouse wrote:I'm not sure why you're getting so bogged down with this tangential analogy. It doesn't compute. One is a situation where a woman is absolutely guaranteed to be upset because your intentions were clearly malevolent and you took advantage of her inebriation and the other is an example of you protecting her from her inebriation. As I stated, the lack of consent would probably make that technically a kidnapping... just one where nobody is going to complain the next day because, in their sober state, they will understand you had only positive intentions.
Edit: I see now you wrote that she said nothing one way or the other. With that in mind, I would say it is probably not kidnapping. The rest of my points still apply.
What I edited my post to add that, it was more legal conjecturing. I'm really not sure and it doesn't have a thing to do with what I've written. It is clear from both of my posts in which I mention this that I believe it is okay for you to "kidnap" a friend if your intentions are to bring them home, get them some rest, some water, etc. Whether or not it would be kidnapping on a technical level is something I go back and forth on. But if your intentions are clearly positive and your friend wakes up the next morning alive and sober, I would have a difficult time imagining that they would consider it kidnapping.
The reason this differs from being too drunk to consent with rape is that by having sex with a person too drunk to consent, your motives are by default nefarious. You are taking advantage of their inebriation, not helping to minimize it.
Edit: Changed the last word of paragraph 2 from "rape" to "kidnapping" because that is what I meant... just damn tired right now.
Last edited by MekongMouse on Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Valentine's day rape
More and more I see it leaking from Berkley, into influential studies like this, and then into the popular press that reports over and over that large percentages of men are rapists, based on the answers to questions like these. This study made headlines around the world, repeatedly, for months, and is still being cited. Your good common sense understanding of the issue is slowly being lost in the new agenda.MekongMouse wrote:Yes, I'm familiar with the "yes means yes" movement and do think it is quite silly. I think we have a lot of problems with rape in our society that will not in any way be solved by this nonsense since the problems aren't with the lack of laws. I think the intention is to clear up any ambiguity in date rapes, but because those always end in he said / she said anyway, I hardly see the use though because whether or not she said no or whether or not she said yes is still really, really hard to prove. I guess I just wasn't aware that it was that well known or embraced outside of California or university campuses. Most people I know (and I do run in progressive circles) think of rape the way I do.
He's not particularly kind to expats either, but I was taking his comment as an extension of a similar comment in the OP.MekongMouse wrote:Add Jay has a long history of making vehemently anti-female posts. When he posts something like that, it means something different than if you post something like that. You have no history of misogyny and are a generally thoughtful poster. Add Jay just likes talking about how much he hates women and I felt his comment was more informed by these emotions than any sort of real analysis (since his post lacked any).
LTO Cambodia Blog
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
"Kafka is 'outdone' in our country, the new fatherland of Angkor" - Norodom Sihanouk
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Re: Valentine's day rape
Add Jay, what about all the young Khmer kids in the clubs every Saturday night? They are not all married. There are young people who are very traditional and those adopting more westernized values.The Add Jay wrote:Not for nothing but there is zero ANY freedom for anybody under the age of 25 for that matter. All of my students are locked up inside their homes until marriage I'm assuming. What kind of life is that? They arent Koreans. So I cant blame the guys on their frustration. And the girls at that age have never had "the talk" to put it in simple terms. I see some curiosity with the girls passed the age of 20 or so but anything below that age they are total space cadets. The guys?? its Kiklu Vietnam girl and KTV. I blame the parents and I blame who ever brought this stupid commercial holiday to this country.
Remember yes means yes and No means anal.
What is rape these days anyway? The term gets thrown around way to often...at least in the States. Now just looking at a women is considered some kind of perverted offense.
I'll give ya 500 Riel for it...
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Re: Valentine's day rape
Any Cambodian girl having premarital sex(y) is considered a slut and is seen as a bad luck for the family....
I was born with nothing , and I still have most of it left.
ChessCube Account name is generalchat
ChessCube Account name is generalchat
Re: Valentine's day rape
I get that this is the Khmer attitude to this issue, but it's highly problematic. People are allowed to change their minds you know? If a girl says that she'll sleep with you tomorrow but she changes her mind shortly before the act, you are not entitled to fuck her. Even if both of you are already naked and you're about to put it in, if she says "no" that must be the end of it. If you proceed and have sex with her against her will, you are a rapist.Samouth wrote:It is true that young cambodian go to have sex on Valentineday. To me, i really don't feel that they were raped or whatever. If she doesn't want to have sex with him, why didn't she ask him to bring her home, not continue to hotel or guesthouse.
Bei der Weiterbildung; in der Todeszone.
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