Tuol Sleng Guard Tells of Executions, Thwarted Rebellion

kiwiincambodia · Post by **kiwiincambodia** » Thu May 05, 2016 6:20 pm

LTO wrote:
kiwiincambodia wrote:It was actually rerun recently (maybe 4 - 5 years ago) and the results were the same. I think it was something put on by discovery channel.

On my phone at the moment but will try and find the video next time I get to a PC.
That will be interesting to see as the Milgram study is famous not only for its results but for being an classic example of unethical experimental techniques. Further, I don't think it (at least the original study) addresses the lengths to which such obedience extends.

Completely agreed.

I think morally there is no way to actually test this to the full, what the results do show is generally people will do things they normally wouldn't do if someone in power tells them too.

What was interesting in the recent study was they expanded on the original experiment and actually had the subjects in pairs (with one being an actor). When the actor objected to the request of the tester and said they would not do it the test subject agreed and didn't proceed. It shows that all it takes is one person to stand up to that authority and others will follow.

LTO · Post by **LTO** » Thu May 05, 2016 6:49 pm

Anchor Moy wrote:
Repeating his testimony yesterday, Mr. Huy said he and his men did not personally assist in these killings at Choeung Ek, and that the executions were overseen by Ta Theng. When asked directly if he personally had killed any of the prisoners, he refused to answer.
http://www.khmertimeskh.com/news/24620/ ... rebellion/

Is it more inhumane to actually kill people than to organize their executions ? Thoughts ?

I would say the latter. The former often are, to some extent, "just following orders" like so many trained monkeys, while the latter has taken on at least some degree of decision making. He's not just following, he's thinking, organizing. And in that thinking he has decided to orchestrate atrocities. The level of culpability is tied to some significant extent to the degree of thought, the degree of intention that precedes the harmful act. The latter, in many if not most cases, has a greater degree of intention, thus a greater level of culpability.

phuketrichard · Post by **phuketrichard** » Thu May 05, 2016 7:41 pm

i feel those that " order" the deaths are much more guilty, than those that merely follow orders to save their own lives.
it is said that to survive, a rat will chew off his own leg to escape, and i believe that anyone, would do just about anything to live
BUT what about when it came time, that to survive, they were forced to turn in their neighbors, their parents., knowing they would be killed. Could you, would you do that to survive?

I truly believe I am a righteous mam, but i pray my righteousness is never tested.

cptrelentless · Post by **cptrelentless** » Thu May 05, 2016 7:51 pm

Weren't most of the people used for killing just peasant farmers? You get a lot of death on farms which your middle class city type doesn't see on a daily basis. Less squeamish about killing things, plus culturally in Asia you do what you are told. As to the experiments like the zap your buddy one, a lot of people argue that it's the type of person (and their relationship to the tester) you get volunteering for experiments that skews the data. I remember Adam Curtis touching on this when he did The Trap.

kiwiincambodia · Post by **kiwiincambodia** » Thu May 05, 2016 8:09 pm

LTO wrote:
kiwiincambodia wrote:It was actually rerun recently (maybe 4 - 5 years ago) and the results were the same. I think it was something put on by discovery channel.

On my phone at the moment but will try and find the video next time I get to a PC.
That will be interesting to see as the Milgram study is famous not only for its results but for being an classic example of unethical experimental techniques. Further, I don't think it (at least the original study) addresses the lengths to which such obedience extends.

Here's a clip.

I will try and find the full episode tomorrow.

Anchor Moy · Post by **Anchor Moy** » Thu May 05, 2016 9:07 pm

Anchor Moy wrote:
I think most of us would have obeyed. They order you to kill someone or you will be killed, then once you've crossed that line, further resistance makes no sense.

Of course I'd like to say I would NEVER do this. And as myself, right now, I hope I would refuse. But I admit I really really don't know. If you are an uneducated peasant in a culture which insists that you should always obey those who are in power, do you have the inner resources to resist the power structure ? Again, I'd love to say that I would be the exceptional being, but I can't be sure of that.

Good luck to those of you who are sure that morality would win against survival. I'd like to believe this, but I doubt.

Post by **Jamie_Lambo** » Fri May 06, 2016 12:54 am

kiwiincambodia wrote:
LTO wrote:
kiwiincambodia wrote:It was actually rerun recently (maybe 4 - 5 years ago) and the results were the same. I think it was something put on by discovery channel.

On my phone at the moment but will try and find the video next time I get to a PC.
That will be interesting to see as the Milgram study is famous not only for its results but for being an classic example of unethical experimental techniques. Further, I don't think it (at least the original study) addresses the lengths to which such obedience extends.
Here's a clip.

I will try and find the full episode tomorrow.

i watched that doc before it was a good programme

LTO · Post by **LTO** » Fri May 06, 2016 4:24 am

Anchor Moy wrote:
Anchor Moy wrote:
I think most of us would have obeyed. They order you to kill someone or you will be killed, then once you've crossed that line, further resistance makes no sense.
Of course I'd like to say I would NEVER do this. And as myself, right now, I hope I would refuse. But I admit I really really don't know. If you are an uneducated peasant in a culture which insists that you should always obey those who are in power, do you have the inner resources to resist the power structure ? Again, I'd love to say that I would be the exceptional being, but I can't be sure of that.

Good luck to those of you who are sure that morality would win against survival. I'd like to believe this, but I doubt.

But could you do that? Would your inner self allow it? Could you torture and kill children and innocent women? Honestly, personally, not philosophically, I don't think most men are capable of that, regardless of threat or precedent. Have I misjudged the real world, the hearts of men?

willyhilly · Post by **willyhilly** » Fri May 06, 2016 5:32 am

I think a lot of the guards were children weren't they? Read about the Hitler Youth in tanks in Normandy in 1944, hopped up on speed and cognac and some 14 or 15 years old. They murdered POWs, exploded grenades when captured to kill their captors and were blinded by propaganda. Child soldiers in Africa are totally ruthless. I have photo of that KR kid walking up Monivong on invasion day and his rifle is taller than him.

kiwiincambodia · Post by **kiwiincambodia** » Fri May 06, 2016 9:13 am

kiwiincambodia wrote:
LTO wrote:
kiwiincambodia wrote:It was actually rerun recently (maybe 4 - 5 years ago) and the results were the same. I think it was something put on by discovery channel.

On my phone at the moment but will try and find the video next time I get to a PC.
That will be interesting to see as the Milgram study is famous not only for its results but for being an classic example of unethical experimental techniques. Further, I don't think it (at least the original study) addresses the lengths to which such obedience extends.
Here's a clip.

I will try and find the full episode tomorrow.

Full episode in the below link;

Maybe a mod can fix it to show here, if not just follow the link.

Tuol Sleng Guard Tells of Executions, Thwarted Rebellion

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