To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Soi Dog » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:33 am

In the US, McDonalds workers earn at least the federal minimum wage or more, depending on the laws of the state where they work. Most begin to earn more than the minimum wage after a short, initial probation period. Flight attendants and bus drivers make considerably more than any minimum wage on offer. Therefore, they don't require tipping to survive. Wait staff, however, can legally be paid much less than minimum wage (less than a third of the minimum wage in some states). Tips make up most of their income. To not tip for decent service would be unthinkable. I feel the same for Cambodian wait staff who may be making as little as $60/month with no room and board, to whom a $1 tip per customer could change their lives.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-2 ... years.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't mean Europeans or others have to follow suit.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by OrangeDragon » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:48 am

UKJ wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:To give you an idea of how the poor understanding of tipping, or just bullheadedness about it, of people from non tipping countries as a whole has impacted the relationship of servers and foreigners in America... when foreigners enter a restaurant the hostess (to person who seats them) almost universally will apologise to the waiter or waitress who's section they seated them in. ESPECIALLY if it's the sort of place that does "tip out" where a percentage of the tips (based on sales amounts) are distributed to the kitchen staff as well... because in that case, under a 15% tip actually costs the server money. As it should if they're cocking up constantly... since why should someone who fucks off and is sloppy/lazy get paid the same as someone who busts their ass making a good experience for a customer?
.
It's not a foreigners fault that American restaurants are scam joints. The menu should give the actual cost of dining there, and not a bogus price, that you are meant to stick 15% + on, or win prize money that is actually up to 8% less than stated, as a heavy demands immediate payment. Thai restaurants can give you an English menu. Why can't tourist restaurants in America, give tourists a real price? Jeez. And because the rest of the world does it different, we are rude, ignorant and bullheaded. :facepalm:

So what's an " ass busting good experience " ? I don't think most Euros want " Hello, my name is Brad/ Cindy, and I'm going to be your server tonight. The specials are , blah blah blah" . We want a menu that we can read, without talking to a falsely enthusiastic person who has to demean themselves by kissing our ass because their boss doesn't pay them enough. We like workers to have their dignity intact.
Generally it's not false... believe it or not americans tend to be polite people. We hold doors for strangers, smile at strangers we're interacting with, introduce ourselves, and so on. Overly so by many european standards. Likely why many europeans are seen as rude by american standards. And, in the end, you're in america... we DO want someone being friendly and polite with us, paying attention that we're almost out of our beverage and checking if we'd like some more, asking us part way through if everything is alright or if they can get us something. Most businesses in america, with a very few exceptions, are targeted for americans... not international tourists. and it's a service we're willing to pay for, and we do so with tips. don't like that? go to mcdonalds/etc where such things aren't expected (though they'll still be polite).

And that IS the actual price of the food... not of the service. You can be a dick and not tip... it's not illegal. I've even done it when completely broke and explained to the server that I was strapped and only had enough for my meal (in advance). They were fine with it, knowing how such things are themselves, and there were no issues. Its called being polite.

So euros don't like to tip... and get unfriendly service as a result... perfect. they didn't want to pay for friendly service, only for their food... so they got what they paid for.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by UKJ » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:17 am

OrangeDragon wrote:
UKJ wrote:
OrangeDragon wrote:To give you an idea of how the poor understanding of tipping, or just bullheadedness about it, of people from non tipping countries as a whole has impacted the relationship of servers and foreigners in America... when foreigners enter a restaurant the hostess (to person who seats them) almost universally will apologise to the waiter or waitress who's section they seated them in. ESPECIALLY if it's the sort of place that does "tip out" where a percentage of the tips (based on sales amounts) are distributed to the kitchen staff as well... because in that case, under a 15% tip actually costs the server money. As it should if they're cocking up constantly... since why should someone who fucks off and is sloppy/lazy get paid the same as someone who busts their ass making a good experience for a customer?
.
It's not a foreigners fault that American restaurants are scam joints. The menu should give the actual cost of dining there, and not a bogus price, that you are meant to stick 15% + on, or win prize money that is actually up to 8% less than stated, as a heavy demands immediate payment. Thai restaurants can give you an English menu. Why can't tourist restaurants in America, give tourists a real price? Jeez. And because the rest of the world does it different, we are rude, ignorant and bullheaded. :facepalm:

So what's an " ass busting good experience " ? I don't think most Euros want " Hello, my name is Brad/ Cindy, and I'm going to be your server tonight. The specials are , blah blah blah" . We want a menu that we can read, without talking to a falsely enthusiastic person who has to demean themselves by kissing our ass because their boss doesn't pay them enough. We like workers to have their dignity intact.
Generally it's not false... believe it or not americans tend to be polite people. We hold doors for strangers, smile at strangers we're interacting with, introduce ourselves, and so on. Overly so by many european standards. Likely why many europeans are seen as rude by american standards. And, in the end, you're in america... we DO want someone being friendly and polite with us, paying attention that we're almost out of our beverage and checking if we'd like some more, asking us part way through if everything is alright or if they can get us something. Most businesses in america, with a very few exceptions, are targeted for americans... not international tourists. and it's a service we're willing to pay for, and we do so with tips. don't like that? go to mcdonalds/etc where such things aren't expected (though they'll still be polite).

And that IS the actual price of the food... not of the service. You can be a dick and not tip... it's not illegal. I've even done it when completely broke and explained to the server that I was strapped and only had enough for my meal (in advance). They were fine with it, knowing how such things are themselves, and there were no issues. Its called being polite.

So euros don't like to tip... and get unfriendly service as a result... perfect. they didn't want to pay for friendly service, only for their food... so they got what they paid for.
So much wrong there!
Big statement to claim Americans have higher standards of politeness etc. Either you don't get that Europe is VASTLY different from one nation to another or you have spent a lot of time in Europe and can make such claims. I know you think your experience is gospel, as you dispute documentaries. Based on your words, I'd say Americans sound rather impolite as you claim they don't like Europeans and think their presence requires an apology to workmates. And calling an entire continent rude and obnoxious sounds impolite to me.

The server must be false, as you claimed they don't like Europeans.

Nobody said Euros don't tip or don't like to tip. For the tenth time aaaaaagh :facepalm: , not all Euros are the same.
Some tip, some maybe don't. And maybe tourist places should cater to tourists from the markets they advertise in. Maybe Brits are more polite, but we cater to muslims for example ( halal) etc. Rather than have Americans insulting tourists and apologising for placing them in a fellow Americans vicinity, calling them dicks online etc, simply cater to your target market, and don't be abusive to other cultures.

------------

So who are all the other " Dick nations" , when compared to the scrupulously polite Americans who are better than Europeans?
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Bitte_Kein_Lexus » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:20 am

UKJ wrote:So what's an " ass busting good experience " ? I don't think most Euros want " Hello, my name is Brad/ Cindy, and I'm going to be your server tonight. The specials are , blah blah blah" . We want a menu that we can read, without talking to a falsely enthusiastic person who has to demean themselves by kissing our ass because their boss doesn't pay them enough. We like workers to have their dignity intact.
Pretty much agree.


OD, when I'm in Canada or the US, I always tip. 15% is the norm, but it'll go up to 25% when I'm on the piss. Now Last year I went over and having been in Cambodia for a while, I make a faux pas. I went to a bar with a friend. Ordered two pints (6-7$ each). The guy brought them over with some change (4 quarters, a 1 dollars and a bill I think). I then slid back a 50 cents tip for him. He pushed the change back towards me across the bar, I then pushed it back towards him with a look on my face that said: "no no, it's for yo ;) ". He walked off and left it there. After he'd left, my friend (who is actually Cambodian) pointed out that it was a really small tip. I then did the math quickly and realized I had severely undertipped. It was quite embarrassing at the time as I had gone into "Cambodian" tipping mode. We then laughed about it as it was admittedly funny, but the guy didn't come to serve us again. Another guy served us. But it got me thinking a bit. Seriously, what was exceptional? He walked exactly 2.5 meters to greet us, 2.5m to the taps, poured two tap beers, then brought them over. A total of 7-8m walked and around 60 seconds total and for this he made 50 cents. The bar was relatively busy.

Now, no one has addressed my original points on page one... Why do you tip certain people but not others? Do you leave a small envelope to your flight attendant as you leave the plane? He/she has been busting their ass for you for 10-12 hours straight, under way more demanding circumstances than a waiter/waitress! And they don't exactly make good money. So why no tip? Thousands of jobs provides a service, but don't get tips. Why? Is it because their employers give them more money?

The newspaper delivery guy makes way less in tips than a waitress (they usually only get tipped for special holidays such as Christmas or Easter). Why do you tip a waitress, but not tip the guy at Subway/Quiznos (or tip him way less)? He literally took your order, MADE your sandwich and gave it to you. But wait, he didn't walk 10 meters to and from the kitchen so he doesn't deserve a 15-20% tip?! I have a friend who applied at Subway way back, and was offered less than minimum wage because "he would make tips". Who the fuck tips at Subway?! Subway is a franchise and these guys were obviously trying to bend the rules a bit (other Subways gave a higher salary). Again, it was an employer trying to wiggle out of his responsibility to pay employees a fair wage. I worked as a bag boy in a supermarket for a few years in high school. I got tipped, but very rarely. Like maybe `1-2$ per week. I made minimum wage and bagged thousands upon thousands of bags for people extremely quickly. Including the "special request" types who wanted paper bags instead of plastic, those who wanted their own bags filled and so forth. And yes, I always arranged food by category (cold together, eggs and bread always on top etc). This with a speed which would make a Cambodian bagger's eyes twirl (despite their cashiers being extremely slow when it comes to scanning items/knowing codes). The only ones who tipped were ex-bag boys.
So why didn't I deserve to get tipped? A few would literally tell you where to place every single item in a 200$ bill. Of course, they were the ones who would never tip. Bag your own fucking bags then. But again, the reason I wasn't tip is because "that's not how the system works". Certain jobs get tips, others don't. But why? That's one of my main grips with tipping. Tons and tons of jobs provide a service and get mediocre pay (I say this because it's usually a reason pro-tippers give FOR giving tips) but society doesn't deem them worthy of tips.

I've never met a single "pro-tipper" able to address this issue.


[EDIT]I just saw snoi dog's post about McDonalds and flight attendants. I know several people who work/have worked for major airlines and let me tell you flight attendants don't make big bucks. It takes years to move up the pay scale and it's a demanding job (why do you rarely see old flight attendants?). The hourly rate might seem good at first, but did you know they don't get paid until the plane's doors are closed? So when they're greeting you and strapping you in etc they're working for free. They only get paid from the moment the wheels leave the ground to the moment the touch the ground. So all the prep work/safety meetings they do before you arrive and after you leave are for free. And as I said, pay isn't good (comparable to a waitress I'd say) and their schedules generally suck. But obviously it can be a fun job for the right people, especially when they're young.
Last edited by Bitte_Kein_Lexus on Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Soi Dog » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:26 am

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote:I've never met a single "pro-tipper" able to address this issue.
I did...for American waitresses, anyway.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by UKJ » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:31 am

Soi Dog wrote:In the US, McDonalds workers earn at least the federal minimum wage or more, depending on the laws of the state where they work. Most begin to earn more than the minimum wage after a short, initial probation period. Flight attendants and bus drivers make considerably more than any minimum wage on offer. Therefore, they don't require tipping to survive. Wait staff, however, can legally be paid much less than minimum wage (less than a third of the minimum wage in some states). Tips make up most of their income. To not tip for decent service would be unthinkable. I feel the same for Cambodian wait staff who may be making as little as $60/month with no room and board, to whom a $1 tip per customer could change their lives.
So basically, there is no minimum wage? Pretty shocking imho. But up to America.

I agree regarding Cambodia. Tipping is an absolute pleasure.
Re the bus drivers etc. It's Tarantino who was questioning it, and he has a point. And when you think of it, why not pay everyone less and get people to tip them! Or the logical route, would be to pay all workers a liveable minimum wage. I know some American restaurants have tried. As a Euro, I would dine there, as staff in other restaurants don't like us.

And I think OD misunderstands. I am debating the claim the tipping in America is for exceptional service. There's been no explanation as to what exceptional service entails, except pouring B52s , which isn't so acclaimed in Europe! :D Tipping seems to be enforced by heavies, social stigma, or guilt, as the servers are exploited and would starve otherwise.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Bitte_Kein_Lexus » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:31 am

Soi Dog wrote:
Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote:I've never met a single "pro-tipper" able to address this issue.
I did...for American waitresses, anyway.
Read my edit regarding flight attendants. And no you didn't, you simply said they get paid less than minimum. We all know that, that's what we're asking: why are they being paid less than minimum in the first place? A sous-chef will often make paltry money and work in harsher conditions but until recently, he wouldn't make any tips. What about the dish-washer? My brother worked as a dish washer in a popular breakfast place and sometimes a waitress would give him a bit of her tips if it was a very busy day. Even she felt sorry for him...

So yes, they make less than minimum, but end up making more than most other jobs (including flight attendants) off of tips. Why? Why don't you tip other jobs? Is a waiters job more demanding than working at McDonalds? Than bagging grocery bags? Than washing dishes? Than dealing with crying infants and assholes in the confined environment of a plane?

You honestly don't find it the least bit strange? Or double-standard-ish? You're a very rational person, so I find it hard to believe you don't see the weirdness of the whole system.
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Soi Dog » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:48 am

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: You honestly don't find it the least bit strange?
Sure, but I still tip waitresses because I know how little they make without tips, regardless of how strange and double standard-ish that may be, and have no strong feelings to do otherwise. I am not out to change the world, or the custom of tipping wait staff.

But why do YOU tip when you are so strongly opposed to the custom? I personally wouldn't do anything I have strong feelings against if I didn't have to without penalty (i.e. paying taxes).
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by UKJ » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:51 am

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote:I then slid back a 50 cents tip for him. He pushed the change back towards me across the bar, I then pushed it back towards him with a look on my face that said: "no no, it's for yo ;) ". He walked off and left it there. .
.
That's what I hate to hear about Vegas / America. I find the bartenders attitude more impolite than non tippers. I have been in jobs where I got tips, which is why I always tip. Some tips were tiny, but it's the thought that counts imho. Someone is voluntarily giving you money. I always thanked everyone. I would would even thank people for saying I worked hard etc. A polite Euro eh. Whatever next! :D I don't agree with the monetising everything and having minimum gratuities. People should be able to pay what they can afford without obnoxious bartenders embarrassing them.

I tried to tip an air stewardess once and she said they don't accept tips. I think she may have been offended. Other cultures need to try to understand that people are different, and maybe not rude obnoxious dicks!
Another time I tried to tip a guy who made an amazing job of laying a wooden floor. I think he was offended. Weeks later I saw him in his new Volvo, so no wonder. Some people see it as " I don't need your charity".
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Re: To tip or not to tip... or should it be banned?

Post by Rain Dog » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:52 am

I think a lot depends on the situation and where you are eating. The Girls in the Barang oriented places like on Riverside most certainly expect tips, count on them, and remember who tips and who does not. Most of these Girls earn about $90-$120 a month base salary and count on tips. Generally they expect to clear $200 per month after tips.

A friend of mine who worked at one of one of the largest hotel restaurants here told me tips of $1-$2 was the norm --- irrespective of party size or bill. For example a solo diner just having breakfast might tip $1 but a Group of 10 or 20 coming for lunch might tip $2 or $3 max total across the party.

I usually tip but never in the case of bad service, greed, or stupidity. For example, at one well known, western managed establishment often mentioned on these boards I ordered dinner for two people and asked about happy hour on beer and was told "sorry -- no --- HH finished". HH ended at 7:00pm ---- it was 7:02pm. I mildly protested but she was not budging and I was not about to raise a fuss over a $0.5 difference on my beer. However, I definitely did not tip and the place has fallen quite down my list of places to return too.

When it gets to more local oriented places, it gets more confusing. Tips are definitely not the norm but they are definitely hoped for when Barang guests show up. I play it case by case here depending on service, but never tip more than$1 to 1.5 at most and if the service is bad I do not tip at all. Usually the BBQ joints take good care of me and I tip.

On the other end of the demographic I went to Armand's a few weeks ago and ran up a pretty big bill on dinner for two. I had no idea what to tip there so just gave the server $2 ---- no idea if I was a "Cheap Charlie" or not (any insights appreciated).

As an aside, I went to a Vietnamese place a few weeks ago with a Khmer friend and left a 5000 riel tip. My Khmer friend observed with horror on her face and "explained" to me later --- "Tip Cambodia people Good --- they see you good man --- Tip Vietnam no Good ---- they think you stupid -- why you give money away?"

Go figure.
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