DrDisFunkShunAll wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:53 pm Apparently, the hack was limited to only $30 million, and they'll be paying clients back.

The hack on the Japanese crypto exchange was huge because they stored everything in one hot wallet.

So, damage control is in place, refreshingly.

And the exchange is taking responsibility over it. That's a first in recent crypto history? No runners?

Question time ,,,,,

Who is '' they ''.
Where does '' they '' get $30 m from,
What is '' they '' doing with $30 m in their back pocket and why and where did it come from ?

Duncan wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:20 pm

DrDisFunkShunAll wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:53 pm Apparently, the hack was limited to only $30 million, and they'll be paying clients back.

The hack on the Japanese crypto exchange was huge because they stored everything in one hot wallet.

So, damage control is in place, refreshingly.

And the exchange is taking responsibility over it. That's a first in recent crypto history? No runners?

Question time ,,,,,

Who is '' they ''.
Where does '' they '' get $30 m from,
What is '' they '' doing with $30 m in their back pocket and why and where did it come from ?

They are a crypto exchange. Crypto exchanges need to have massive reserves because they act as brokers, and many now take cryptographically verifiable audits to prove their liquidity (with Kraken being the first to do so). Their startup money comes from investors, shareholders, founders, vc firms, wherever businesses usually get their capital from. There is nothing shady or sinister about it, especially with regards to companies based in countries with heavy regulations in place.

There seems to be a theme that either a) FIAT have no intrinsic value or b) If it does then Crypto must be a currency as it can spent. They relate and are used mutually inclusively to the same misconception.

FIAT's do ahve intrinsic value. As an example the fIAT with least intrinsic value as a % is USD as approximately 15% is traded simply for trading profits. So the intrinsic value of a USD dollar is about 0.85c US, based on that it represents collectively all the manufacturing, service, commodities, etc... that US produces from day to day. Those things that a USD buys are tangible. No sypto has yet any meaningful tangible value.

Bitcoin is the only Crypto with any notable intrinsic value currently, it's less simple to measure than a FIAT but the most reliable experts estimate it at around 15% of the days trading value which decreases whne Bitcoin goes up in price. (Because who wants to buy a pizza today for 0.0002 bitcoins only to find out that it turned out to be a $1000 pizza or vice-versa for the vendor)

Whether BCs intrinsic value remains if there is a crash, is really what the argument is about. Many suggest a crash would devastate the currency, crypto realists who allow for a crash suggest that it would maintain trading perspective preventing total annihilation and from there find a reliable-ish value.

Most of the arguments being used to promote/defend crypto are utter fallacy, however and that makes a devastating crash more and more likely for crypto as a general currency. The hype is using way too much BS to con people into buying/holding.



That looks utterly ridiculous, right. But multiply it by a couple hundred thousand tech heads, and few thousand black market operators... and you have the initial history of bitcoin.

What the best (ONLY real, curently) cypto, Bitcoin, has holding it in place now is NOT in any way related to its inherent value. Bitcoin has been taken from over 80% of the retailers that started accepting it when it was $500.

Crypto realists (those that believe in the usability but aren't blind to what is happening externally) are awaiting it to stabilise and resume that service in a few years OR or for a few of the Ether based cryptos to actually be applied in a specific industry. (That's impossible to forecast as every 2nd Ether is falsely claiming relationships with VW, Elon Musk, etc, etc, etc) There have been musings about Amazon or Google creating their own crypto for only their services products. However that isn't remotely likely in next couple years, and will be a long way off if ever, before these guys wanna muddy their political waters.

It's partly the money making hype by the free-money crowd that's keeping it afloat at the moment, like an enourmous pyramid scheme;


... and partly the anarchist dreamers who want a tech ruled world that bipasses governments and regulation. These are the two biggest factors that will lead to its utter demise. That is; they talk in blogs and forums about the "power of the people" and the "ëvil bankers" and citing Credit Suisse et al as giving crypto legitimacy in teh same breath. What an oxymoron. Looking at it simply, it will be run and controlled by bankers like CS, and worse unqualified bankers like the Winkelvosses/Juarez Cartel/Kim Jong Un etc... BUT without regualtory protections our deeply-flawed democratic sytmes protect from, AT LEAST MINIMALLY in our regulated systems. It's akin to the communist dream. the people running their own economies and nobody getting greedy and fucking everyone over. It's impossible in the human condition.

The one thing that protects crypto from catastrophic manipulation, that is manipulation that instantly leads to a full burst of the bubble, is "threat-world investors" looking to store a value somewhere that's less physically difficult to transport than gold. E.G. Russian Oligarchs with trade sanctions over their heads, Venezuelans/South Africans looking to avoid monstrous inflation and taxes in their home countries, etc...etc...

So while recognising the possibility, I personally think it's improbable that cryptoes will survive BOTH the external regulators who want to know who's dodging their taxes/trading illegally AND the greedy manipulators who thrive on greater fools in any market and particularly love an unregulated one.

I'm betting it's a gigantic bubble that is going to suffer a major POP following hacker theft that makes Mt Gox $180mill look like chicken feed, repeated major cartel (oil, drugs, you name it) conspiracies, and a third world disaster that is based in crypto trade (nuke technology to Kim Jong).

When enough deregulated shit hits the New World Order, there IS something the world can do to stop crypto...if they all get together. It just depends whether the bad shit happens before the really powerful guys have so much invested in it that it's worth their while to keep it. Swiss-bankers/Nazi-cash type power.

Basically, I think you'd be FUCKING BONKERS to "invest" in a crypto yet.

But there is money to be made if you can trade one, without being caught by the really smart guys who either a) manipulate the masses (of whom you must thrive not be one...masses I mean), or b) know how to use trading and charting algorithms to get the jump on the "greater fools".

To date the winners are crowing, but every cent they've won, was won from the silent losers, the greater fools who'll never admit their losses...because there is NO INHERENT value yet.

Bubble T wrote: ↑Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:33 pm There is nothing shady or sinister about it, especially with regards to companies based in countries with heavy regulations in place.

$1.7 Billion, that we KNOW about.
How much more in unreportable funds have been pinched?

https://rados.io/list-of-documented-exchange-hacks/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cryp ... SKCN1IP2LU

Uh, someone's spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Fiat is a national product. We print these nice pictures on paper (or plastic), and we (the government) get to pay for whole projects for nearly free.

Plain and simple.

Then the government changes, and bad replaces the good, usually.

So ... the blockchain is 24/7. Fiat banks are not.

Yes, be cautious, but as cautious as you'd approach any trading — the options are worse in traditional markets.

Get smart — make money on trades.

Don't get smart — be a friar, it appears, haha.

DrDisFunkShunAll wrote: ↑Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:40 pm Uh, someone's spreading Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Fiat is a national product. We print these nice pictures on paper (or plastic), and we (the government) get to pay for whole projects for nearly free.

Plain and simple.

Then the government changes, and bad replaces the good, usually.

So ... the blockchain is 24/7. Fiat banks are not.

Yes, be cautious, but as cautious as you'd approach any trading — the options are worse in traditional markets.

Get smart — make money on trades.

Don't get smart — be a friar, it appears, haha.

So there is no uncertainty or doubt in cryptoes, except that painted by fear mongers like me, okaaaaay. LOL.
"It's true Dorothy, there is an OZ, where there is free money for everyone and noone loses, only everyone profits. Of course the rich will share, Dorothy we CAN all live in Oz, if we just believe." Yeeeerrrrrrpp,

Love your analysis of democratic government.... "Then the government changes, and bad replaces the good, usually."
So by your thinking Russia, Cuba, Cambodia,Syria et al... etc are the BEST countries for all the people because they never change leadership?

I particularly loved Bubble's explanation of safety in cryptoe safety... "There is nothing shady or sinister about it, especially with regards to companies based in countries with heavy regulations in place

So, Crypto Pumpers.... is crypto attractive because it's deregulated, or most attractive when it's regulated??? Which is it?

That's the point I made in my first diatribe. It's mostly based in BS not inherent value. The best traders will take money from the 80 percent or so of losing traders; buying and selling the crypto - not spending it, as one does with a FIAT. And they want you in... because it's ur money they want.

StroppyChops wrote:However, if the stock market slid to the degree that cryptos did, people would be jumping out of windows.

Ehh.. ok.



Anyway.. how's the cryptocurrency market doing? Well.. if you zoom out a little, it's doing great! Especially if you ignore all the shitcoins and focus on THE cryptocurrency - Bitcoin. It's up about 1100000 percent since it started trading at around $0.06 sometime in 2010..

1 year ROI is about 136%
2 year ROI is about 851%..
6 month ROI is -58.72%

..so cherry picking the 6 month ROI is kind of like asking how the stock market was doing in March 2009.. around 6 months after the 2008 crash. Well, Dow was at a12 year low and the S&P finished at its lowest level in a decade. So since it's all time high the Dow was down nearly 54% and the S&P had lost around 57%.

It would have been horrible to have bought into those falling stock markets just prior to the bubble busting wouldn't it?

In fact the stock market crashes regularly just like the cryptocurrency market does.. (from what I've read, experts are predicting another incoming crash shortly.) But let's not talk about that..

IMO If someone did no research whatsoever, put all the money they couldn't afford to lose into the stock market or into bitcoin (or any of the shitcoins - that all follow btc) at the ath - expecting to get rich within 6 months, then sold at the low.. then they are greedy, impulsive morons and deserve the world of hurt that is awaiting them.

It takes about 2 minutes of googling to find out that this happens regularly with bitcoin (and therefore the whole cryptocurrency market). Just like it does with the stock market. Except with bitcoin it's on a much shorter timeline. Everything happens much quicker. Bitcoin has crashed and shot up to a new all time high again and again and again.. it's "died" a thousand deaths. Yet every time there's a crash, people fall over each other calling for it to die and go to zero. And every time it has bounced back, reaching new all time highs.



I am still up about 800% since I put all my money into bitcoin a couple of years ago. And I've been dollar cost averaging into bitcoin almost every month since and I still am. Even if Bitcoin is expected to pull back all the way to the 5000 range, (possibly even slightly lower before the correction is over) I will keep on putting my worthless fiat into bitcoin.. For anyone that's been in bitcoin for more than 6 months this correction is completely normal.

As for whether bitcoin is a currency or not.. I don't really care what they call it. I use bitcoin to pay bills every month. I pay my vpn with bitcoin, my e-mail service, different streaming services.. I use it to buy anything from tech to clothes online. I can buy airline tickets with it. I can book hotel rooms with it. I can buy gold and silver with it. Or I can use my wirex card and buy just about ANYTHING else with it. Or use said card to withdraw worthless fiat. If I exchange a bag of rice for a case of beer, does that make rice a currency? Who cares.. As far as banks are concerned, the only thing that will ever be a legal currency is the one they are issuing..

Which is why I don't think bitcoin will be the new world currency. I think it's much more likely that countries will start issuing their own worthless digital fiat cryptcurrencies. I mean, you can't create trillions of bitcoin out of thin air every year so how would banks and governments keep afloat?

I do however think bitcoin will be a very popular alternative to gold, silver, stocks and banks for people who want to control their own money. For people who don't want to rely on banks to keep their money safe. For people who want the option to do whatever THEY want with THEIR money without asking anyone else for permission. For people who are sick of inflation, censorship, negative interest, extortionate fees and ridiculously slow transactions.

To be fair, these people probably amount to about 5% of a typical country's population.. the rest are happy to live under the heel of the banks and the governments and wants and desperately needs to be told what to do with their money and how to do it. And that's fine..

finbar wrote:As a currency, it's pretty useless given the huge transaction fees and the crazy volatility.

Last time I checked it took 5 days and cost $15 to deposit $100, in person, in one bank to an account in another bank (in Scandinavistan). It's if course considerably cheaper to transfer money nationally bank to bank online, but it takes at least a working day. Sending a couple of hundred dollars across country or across the world cost at least somewhere around $10-$40 dollars with western union. It's been a while since I've done an international transfer between banks but I would expect it to cost somewhere around $10-40 depending on the bank and the amount.. more if you're sending larger amounts. I pay a $5 fee everytime I withdraw $500 in an atm in Phnom Penh..

Last week it cost me $0.01 to send $664 worth of bitcoin to a legacy wallet - it took about 12-15 minutes.



5 days ago someone sent $8.7 million worth of bitcoin to a legacy wallet for a fee of $0.19. (Both transactions would have been cheaper if all wallets involved were segwit wallets).



Is that's what you would call expensive fees? For a few weeks in December it was costly to send bitcoin. The other nine years of its existence it's been fairly cheap. Especially compared to banks and other services. As for volatility.. I agree. It's wonderfully volatile.

Kammekor wrote:Bitcoin is about to move away from the blockchain

You seem to be completely inable to comprehend anything you read about bitcoin.. Bitcoin is NOT moving off chain. The lightning network is simply a second layer payment protocol that operates on top of the blockchain. A micropayment solution built to solve the scalability problem and enable virtually free, instant peer to peer transactions like buying a coffee or a beer. And just like segwit it is OPTIONAL.

Btw, I have used it to buy things online and yes the transactions ARE virtually free and instant..

So much misinformation, fear and salt in this thread that my head literally hurts after reading through it. Why are so many nocoiners so afraid of cryptocurrency? Why do they hate it so much? I mean, I get why banks and governments fear it and are constantly trying to talk people out of investing in it.. but why do all the other haters spend so much time trying to convince others not to invest in it?

doktor_d wrote: ↑Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:04 am

Kammekor wrote:Bitcoin is about to move away from the blockchain

You seem to be completely inable to comprehend anything you read about bitcoin.. Bitcoin is NOT moving off chain. The lightning network is simply a second layer payment protocol that operates on top of the blockchain. A micropayment solution built to solve the scalability problem and enable virtually free, instant peer to peer transactions like buying a coffee or a beer. And just like segwit it is OPTIONAL.

Of course, I can not comprehend anything... Must be because I still try to do some thinking, instead of copying 'The lightning network is simply a second layer payment protocol that operates on top of the blockchain' from the lightning website.

According to BC's initial design (and praised by many....), each transaction in bitcoin is recorded in the blockchain, until the the end of time. The most transparent 'currency' ever. While that seemed a great idea at the time, after nine years it turned out to be quit a burden with a ledger that's become extremely large despite a relatively small amount of transactions and a limited amount of transactions possible on the network at the same time. About 10 per second.

You say "The lightning network is simply a second layer payment protocol that operates on top of the blockchain.".

Let me rephrase that in easier understandable words, at least for me.

With the lightning network individual transactions are no longer recorded in or verified by the blockchain, they're recorded in 'payment channels' which unlike the blockchain are not accessible. People can open a payment channel and deposit bitcoin in that channel. Then those people can exchange bitcoin through that channel. In the mean time, nothing is recorded in the blockchain, other than the opening of the 'channel payment' and the amount deposited in the channel.
If a payment channel closes, only the latest balances of the people involved in the payment channel are recorded in the blockchain (together with the closure of the channel), not individual transactions. That's quite a change of direction from the initial design, isn't it?

I call that moving away from the blockchain.

edited for typos

you in Cambodia?
take note

Crypto Trading Without License Is 'Illegal,' Cambodian Regulators Say
Authorities in Cambodia have announced that domestic investors are now required to obtain a license in order to purchase, sell or trade cryptocurrencies – activities that would be otherwise regarded as illegal.

https://www.coindesk.com/crypto-trading ... ators-say/

"Competent authorities ''