How's cryptocurrency looking now?

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Kammekor
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Kammekor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:15 pm

Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 am
finbar wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:32 am
The same with Bubble T's trading terms.
Is this coming from the guy who just said that stop loss orders don't exist to cap potential losses? Wtf? That's literally what they are made for.

Kammekor; You just seem flat out confused, I don't even know where to start. Yes, people trade crypto in exactly the same way as they trade currencies, including using the same order types and leverage options. I'm not sure how you can possibly be unaware of this. Try Kraken or Bitfinex to see how it's implemented.

I don't think I am flat out confused, you seem to have missed my point, or just chose to ignore it. The way words are used intermittently in this discussion as if they mean the same bothers me. Crypto as a phenomenon and the way it works are hard enough to understand by itself, it doesn't need anymore confusion by using:

currency and commodity
exchanging and trading
buying crypto and investing in crypto
crypto and cryptocurrency

as if these mean the same. That's my point.
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by finbar » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:23 pm

Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:45 am
I work (as an independent contractor) for one of the trading platforms I listed. I help create the mechanics, how are you going to tell me I don't know anything about them? You said stop loss orders don't exist to mitigate or cap potential losses, would you care to explain why and what purpose you think they serve?
And I used to (not bitcoin). Are you implementing the order book? Maybe you can explain how it works in the crypto world.
I did not say stop losses do not exist, just they don't necessarily cap risk, especially when it counts.
Does your exchange guarantee stop losses?
What if the exchange folds? Or simply closes, or your instrument is suspended?
A smart-contract based stop-loss would do what you say.
Last edited by finbar on Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kammekor
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Kammekor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:30 pm

finbar wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:23 pm
Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:45 am
I work (as an independent contractor) for one of the trading platforms I listed. I help create the mechanics, how are you going to tell me I don't know anything about them? You said stop loss orders don't exist to mitigate or cap potential losses, would you care to explain why and what purpose you think they serve?
And I used to (not bitcoin).
I did not say stop losses do not exist, just they don't necessarily cap risk, especially when it counts.
Does your exchange guarantee stop losses?
What if the exchange folds? Or simply closes, or your instrument is suspended?
A smart-contract based stop-loss would do what you say.
An exchange will need deep pockets to implement that.....
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Bubble T » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 pm

Kammekor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:15 pm
I don't think I am flat out confused, you seem to have missed my point, or just chose to ignore it. The way words are used intermittently in this discussion as if they mean the same bothers me. Crypto as a phenomenon and the way it works are hard enough to understand by itself, it doesn't need anymore confusion by using:

currency and commodity
exchanging and trading
buying crypto and investing in crypto
crypto and cryptocurrency

as if these mean the same. That's my point.
You're absolutely confused. It was clear from the first post when you said crypto currencies aren't currencies, and you've highlighted it with the above post.

- No one said currencies and commodities are the same thing. I noted that they behave in a similar, volatile way when first introduced to market.
- Stock markets and stock exchanges are the same thing. Are you saying forex traders aren't traders? Wtf?
- You buy to invest, or for other reasons. They aren't mutually exclusive.
- Crypto is a very common abbreviation for crypto currency in the context of this kind of discussion. If you have a problem with it then idk what to tell you.
finbar wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:23 pm
I did not say stop losses do not exist, just they don't necessarily cap risk, especially when it counts.
I said stop losses exist to cap risk, and you said "not really". It was a dumb statement.
What if the exchange folds? Or simply closes, or your instrument is suspended?
A smart-contract based stop-loss would do what you say.
- What if any exchange folds? Are you really saying that the possibility of an exchange folding means that stop losses aren't designed to cap or mitigate your potential losses? That's like saying seat belts aren't designed to prevent injuries during a car crash because the car could still flip and you could still die anyway. Crypto markets don't close, they are 24/7. No broker is going to give you a short futures contract with an inbuilt stoploss, it means they can't win from it.

I'm out of the conversation at this point. All we have is a dude who's upset about crypto currencies being referred to as currencies, and another guy who thinks stop losses don't mitigate or cap your risk because the data center could get nuked at any given moment. Smh, are you guys for real?
:dm:
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Barang chgout » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:02 pm

Power and money seems to be related.

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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by finbar » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:33 pm

Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 pm
finbar wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:23 pm
I did not say stop losses do not exist, just they don't necessarily cap risk, especially when it counts.
I said stop losses exist to cap risk, and you said "not really". It was a dumb statement.
The context was that shorts expose you to unbounded risk.
Are you really so dumb, or arrogant, as to assume that someone arguing this point doesn't know what a stop-loss is?
To cover yourself against excessive loss, never mind a stop-loss, you can just buy back the short manually when you've had enough. In fact this is exactly what a stop-loss is, an agreement (with a broker, or a direct entry in the exchange order book) to trade at a certain price.
It works, until it doesn't (the instrument is not for sale, the exchange is suspended, then the price triples when it reopens, etc).
Hence your "unbounded loss risk" is not in fact covered by a stop-loss at all, unless you can get someone to guarantee it, ie an option.

Your overall assertion was something like "If you believe it's worthless why wouldn't you short it. Since no-one does, they must not actually believe it's worthless".
Now we see that it's not quite so simple, and your point doesn't really make sense.
Either you expose yourself to unbounded risk by shorting, or you use an option to lock down the risk, but now you're not only gambling that it's worthless (and you have to have an idea of when it will be so, paying interest to support your position all the way), but also that the price won't go crazy in the meantime. As I said, markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
Quite apart from the fact that simply believing it's all a bubble is not the same as wanting to be involved in attacking it.
Last edited by finbar on Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kammekor
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Kammekor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:51 pm

Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:45 pm
Kammekor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:15 pm
I don't think I am flat out confused, you seem to have missed my point, or just chose to ignore it. The way words are used intermittently in this discussion as if they mean the same bothers me. Crypto as a phenomenon and the way it works are hard enough to understand by itself, it doesn't need anymore confusion by using:

currency and commodity
exchanging and trading
buying crypto and investing in crypto
crypto and cryptocurrency

as if these mean the same. That's my point.
You're absolutely confused. It was clear from the first post when you said crypto currencies aren't currencies, and you've highlighted it with the above post.
Cryptos aren't currencies (yet), just like the motorcycle I gave to you as an example. The fact VISA accepts (some) crypto to exchange them for currencies doesn't make crypto a currency. VISA doesn't decide what a currency is, neither do you, or do I, it's the masses that will decide what's a currency and what's not. The fact cryptos are commonly referred to as cryptocurrency doesn't change that either.

Currencies have several characteristics and as per now crypto is lacking some, but the main lacking is general acceptance.

And about exchanging versus trading - I stated most people are in crypto because they expect someone after them will buy the crypto of them for a higher price. These people are not in crypto for the crypto itself, but to make a profit in the currency they used to buy the crypto with. You are someone actually using the crypto to exchange it to widely accepted currencies and spend it. You are not the rule, you are the exception. Most people in crypto are there trying to collect as much crypto as they can, not to use it as a means of exchange to buy stuff. I call those people traders, I would call you someone exchanging crypto for currencies to be able to spend it on goods. While these two actions are not exclusive, they have a large effect on how crypto works and on whether or not it will ever become a currency. As long as the masses just sit on the their crypto like an asset instead od spending it crypto will not become a currency.
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Kammekor
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by Kammekor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Bubble T wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:13 am
People who use exchanges and trading platforms as if they were banks are doing it wrong. However, plenty of people have also lost money with banks, so I'm not convinced the link means much. If you simply intended to imply that Kraken would be a better choice, I wholeheartedly agree. Their servers have never been compromised, they were the first to do a full cryptographic audit, and were selected by the Japanese government as the court appointed trustee for the whole Mt Gox debarcle due to their industry leading security.
Yes, isn't it interesting - all those people raving about decentralized crypto, and then store their crypto in a centralized way in exchanges.... Then you get......

https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/19/korea ... -hack/amp/
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by armchairlawyer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:46 pm

Don't be ideologically wed to bitcoin, by Hedgeye.
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Re: How's cryptocurrency looking now?

Post by DrDisFunkShunAll » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:53 pm

Apparently, the hack was limited to only $30 million, and they'll be paying clients back.

The hack on the Japanese crypto exchange was huge because they stored everything in one hot wallet.

So, damage control is in place, refreshingly.

And the exchange is taking responsibility over it. That's a first in recent crypto history? No runners?
Yes, the Doctor is IN — Doctor DisFunkShunAll!

:fool: :good: =@ :P
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