How's cryptocurrency looking now?

finbar · Post by **finbar** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:35 pm

DrDisFunkShunAll wrote:Freedom, not always easy and never boring, is becoming available. I really hope it isn't stifled by rival currencies (fiat) and instead, galvanizes a whole new wave of growth, innovation, and inventions that improve our lives. Even yours, Kammekor.

Actually analysis has shown that cryptocurrencies have a concentrating effect on wealth distribution, so your freedom (or the average person's) would diminish relative to the current regime of currency issued by governments on behalf of the people (which is what they do in theory, and at least a little bit in practice, anyway).

Bubble T · Post by **Bubble T** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:36 pm

finbar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 pm I don't see how margin helps manage risk?

The stop loss caps the risk, and margin trading without leverage is (in my unprofessional opinion) a waste of time. With the right stop losses in place you'd stand to gain more than you stand to lose. You can't stop loss a futures contract, so that's why you'd go to margin trading instead.

Again though, my point was more concerning the people who profess to be sure it's going to collapse. If you're unsure either way then it's just a gamble, but if you genuinely think you know something that everyone else doesn't (without resorting to insider trading), it isn't a gamble at all, it's just cashing in on your awesome powers of prediction.

StroppyChops wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:28 pm
Bubble T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:21 pm ... all I ever hear is excuses why people who think it will [insert event here]
See, this is the thing that stands out for me about crypto traders - they seem to think the rest of the world is in the wrong for not (yet) investing in crypto, or for expressing an opinion that doesn't align with that of the crypto trader. On one hand, it's cult-like thinking, on the other hand you need many more people to get onboard to ensure it's viability, and so you seem to be frustrated that we're not all drinking the kool-aid.

Constantly demonstrating why you think someone else who is not investing their cash the same way as you is just dumb, is not actually going to encourage that person to change their behaviour.

To be clear, you haven't done that (much) in this thread, but it seems to be the default position of crypto traders. They're a lot like Apple nerds in some ways.

I think we may have misunderstood each other again. I'm not saying anyone should invest in crypto or that they should share the same opinions of it that I have. What I am saying is that if someone expresses a sincere belief that they are certain of a future event which they could profit from, and then choose not to, they are either dumb or not as certain as they claim to be. It's easy to sit on a barstool saying "this crypto stuff is nonsense, it's all worthless and the price will be $1 per btc in a couple of years", but if you want me to believe that you sincerely think that, you're going to need to take some of your money and use it to lay down a future position that supports your claim, otherwise I'll think you're just talking shit.

I would categorically urge people NOT to invest anything at all in crypto curencies until they feel they at least fully understand the risks involved (which are many, as we can all agree).

finbar · Post by **finbar** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:40 pm

Bubble T wrote:The stop loss caps the risk

Not really. What has been your experience?

Your point about people who are certain of direction, should short it, is irrelevant. As the saying goes, markets can stay irrational far longer than you can stay solvent.

Bubble T · Post by **Bubble T** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:48 pm

finbar wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:40 pm
Bubble T wrote:The stop loss caps the risk
Have you actually traded ever?

Your point about people who are certain of direction, should short it, is irrelevant. As the saying goes, markets can stay irrational far longer than you can stay solvent.

No, the point about people who are certain of direction is the entirety of the point I was making. If it was irrelevant then why even respond? I don't even know what your first comment is supposed to mean. You complained that futures contracts posed too big of a risk, so I gave a less risky (and less rewarding) method.

I'd love to hear whether any of the skeptics here are confident enough in their beliefs to put money on it in the same way as the people who have invested in it. The mechanisms exist but very few people are using them.

StroppyChops · Post by **StroppyChops** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:17 pm

Bubble T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:36 pmIt's easy to sit on a barstool saying...

That it is, that it is.

Kammekor · Post by **Kammekor** » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:41 pm

StroppyChops wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:17 pm
Bubble T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:36 pmIt's easy to sit on a barstool saying...
That it is, that it is.

But so is using definitions as it pleases you....

Bubble T wrote:Putting bitcoin into an account and then walking around with a Visa card paying for things from the same account makes it a currency just like any other.

and from the same post:

Bubble T wrote:The first is indisputable, that the crypto market in general is still very volatile. I feel like you're implying that volatility is bad or unhealthy in the relatively early stages of a new commodity being traded. I think it's healthy, and the fact that most commodities go through a similar thing when they are first introduced to market is important to remember.

So what is it? A currency just like any other, or a commodity?

and in another post:

Bubble T wrote:Does it suck to buy stuff when the price is high and watch it fall? Sure, but that's the risk people take when they get into trading.

So people using crypto are traders? Or just using a currency?

or:

Bubble T wrote:So use margin leverage with stop loss orders. There are plenty of ways to short it, all I ever hear is excuses why people who think it will "probably go much lower" or are "certain it will crash close to $0" won't actually take the steps to profit from this profound wisdom they claim to have.

So just for the sake of the discussion, not for semantics.

I claim cryptos are not a currency yet. Bubble T seem in doubt.

And why, why, would the average person exchange (trade? Bubble T seems to use both) any currency to crypto instead of USD and go through all the hassle Bubble T described above? Whenever I change EUR to USD it's within a 5% bandwith. Bitcoin has been extremely volatile and even I have no idea what the exchange rate will be in a day, or a week, or a month.

My statement: the current generation of crypto is immature and can not be used as a currency. In the long run (I don't know how long the long run is, so going short is not an option) those cryptos will be replaced with newer, more advanced ones. Which? I don't know. Most ICO's currently released seem scams, or copies riding on the blockchain of another crypto.

Just my 2 cents, and my reason for not going short.

DrDisFunkShunAll · Post by **DrDisFunkShunAll** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:37 am

Kammekor,

You're just plain ignorant, and perhaps unsuited for crypto.

Call your financial advisor, who will charge you an arm and a leg for nothing.

Freedom is dangerous for some (you). Some people know or want better.

If you can't do the math, you can't understand the value of trades. Hence, you have a Kammekor > which is a labourer, or follower. NOT a pioneer or trendsetter by any stretch of the imagination.

Some people want control of their trades, and not have an already corrupted system work against them.

In my opinion, it's useless to argue with the tragically ignorant. They cannot or will not understand even the slightest reasons for enlightenment.

But like the Internet (it's from the Devil!) and TV (Reefer Madness!) and radio (Orwelle's War of the Planets address) and the Gutenberg Press (pearls before swine), cryptocurrency can at first be misunderstood, then overwhelmingly accepted as a significant improvement.

Just don't turn into a church lady, will you? Sounds "screechy," as SC puts it, haha.

Kammekor · Post by **Kammekor** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:56 am

DrDisFunkShunAll wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:37 am Kammekor,

You're just plain ignorant, and perhaps unsuited for crypto.

Call your financial advisor, who will charge you an arm and a leg for nothing.

Freedom is dangerous for some (you). Some people know or want better.

If you can't do the math, you can't understand the value of trades. Hence, you have a Kammekor > which is a labourer, or follower. NOT a pioneer or trendsetter by any stretch of the imagination.

Some people want control of their trades, and not have an already corrupted system work against them.

In my opinion, it's useless to argue with the tragically ignorant. They cannot or will not understand even the slightest reasons for enlightenment.

But like the Internet (it's from the Devil!) and TV (Reefer Madness!) and radio (Orwelle's War of the Planets address) and the Gutenberg Press (pearls before swine), cryptocurrency can at first be misunderstood, then overwhelmingly accepted as a significant improvement.

Just don't turn into a church lady, will you? Sounds "screechy," as SC puts it, haha.

Of course, those not embracing the current generation of cryptos are ignorant, don't get it, don't understand the value of freedom and are only here to maintain the corrupted system that has been in place for so long. Plus, of course, those can't embrace innovations. How enlightened the people who actually did invest in the current generation of crypto (is buying crypto investing in crypto?) must be.

So far the framing.

Now maybe you could elaborate a bit more with same (f)actual arguments and leave out the framing? What freedom does crypto give you, that can't be obtained in another, or easier, way? Tell me about the math and the trades enlightening you. Don't fall in the same trap Bubble T fell in before, check the quotes below. You just went down the same road.

StroppyChops wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:28 pm
Bubble T wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:21 pm ... all I ever hear is excuses why people who think it will [insert event here]
See, this is the thing that stands out for me about crypto traders - they seem to think the rest of the world is in the wrong for not (yet) investing in crypto, or for expressing an opinion that doesn't align with that of the crypto trader. On one hand, it's cult-like thinking, on the other hand you need many more people to get onboard to ensure it's viability, and so you seem to be frustrated that we're not all drinking the kool-aid.

Constantly demonstrating why you think someone else who is not investing their cash the same way as you is just dumb, is not actually going to encourage that person to change their behaviour.

edited for typo and added question.

finbar · Post by **finbar** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:32 am

DrDisFunkShunAll wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:37 am Freedom is dangerous for some (you). Some people know or want better.

The same with Bubble T's trading terms.

Distributed ledgers are an interesting tech for all kinds of transactions, but that's not the same thing at all as currency.

Bubble T · Post by **Bubble T** » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 am

finbar wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:32 am The same with Bubble T's trading terms.

Is this coming from the guy who just said that stop loss orders don't exist to cap potential losses? Wtf? That's literally what they are made for.

Kammekor; You just seem flat out confused, I don't even know where to start. Yes, people trade crypto in exactly the same way as they trade currencies, including using the same order types and leverage options. I'm not sure how you can possibly be unaware of this. Try Kraken or Bitfinex to see how it's implemented.

finbar wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:32 am Distributed ledgers are an interesting tech for all kinds of transactions, but that's not the same thing at all as currency.

No one here is saying that blockchain as a protocol is a currency, that would be absurd.

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