Don’t fall for US jingoism

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Queef
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by Queef » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:06 am

Spigzy wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:41 am
What an idiot. The editor of the PPP for publishing such tripe.

And going into debt to get into university is normal for 99% of the plebs, it is called an investment in your future and it's the best damn loan you're ever going to take.
Don't try to normalize this practice. There's nothing normal about graduating from a university with a $50k debt (example). It's a school. Not a business (in theory). Unless you graduate in a STEM related field (and even then), paying off $50k while making $20/hr before tax and living in a city where a 1bedroom apartment goes for $1600 minimum is practically impossible. Given the current job market, going into debt for a bachelors degree is a very bad investment. Going into debt for a masters in political science or gender studies is an even worse investment. That being said, Philip Cameron Roth (name sounds fake as hell) needs to grow a pair
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Spigzy
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by Spigzy » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:34 am

Usually you would have lots of conditions mitigating when you start paying that debt, perhaps the USA is different, but in the UK when I was at university you needed to hit a threshold of residual income before the loan becomes repayable - thus if you can't afford it, it doesn't become due. It's been a long time since I took my loans, I think maybe $25k in today's money, I didn't pay that until I was in my second year at work and the repayments were peanuts based on my small first income. Thanks to my degree getting me a good job for starters and some further hard work, I doubled my salary within 2 years and paid it all off within 3.

I don't see it being any different from taking an MBA or whatever, you know the cost up front, but you're offsetting it by knowing you're going to land a decent paying job.

Definitely worth checking all the details - if you're saying a student loan in the USA becomes payable immediately on employment irrespective of circumstances, then I bow to your point, that would suck.
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Queef
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by Queef » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:28 am

Spigzy wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:34 am
Usually you would have lots of conditions mitigating when you start paying that debt, perhaps the USA is different, but in the UK when I was at university you needed to hit a threshold of residual income before the loan becomes repayable - thus if you can't afford it, it doesn't become due. It's been a long time since I took my loans, I think maybe $25k in today's money, I didn't pay that until I was in my second year at work and the repayments were peanuts based on my small first income. Thanks to my degree getting me a good job for starters and some further hard work, I doubled my salary within 2 years and paid it all off within 3.

I don't see it being any different from taking an MBA or whatever, you know the cost up front, but you're offsetting it by knowing you're going to land a decent paying job.

Definitely worth checking all the details - if you're saying a student loan in the USA becomes payable immediately on employment irrespective of circumstances, then I bow to your point, that would suck.
You do have a grace period in the US (interest free and all that jazz. I think that's only for federal loans though. not sure). The loans themselves are not the problem. The problem is landing a job that pays well 2-3 years after graduation. I've met too many African studies and education majors that ended up waiting tables. Can't pay anything back picking up leftover cheese sticks. You can actually make more money as a bartender (regular wage plus tips) than in an office job at a entry-level position.
My ex's brother got a history degree from Berkeley, did pre-med somewhere on the east coast, and went to med school in Louisiana (meaning that he had to pay out of state tuition for almost 10 years). 32 year old and almost $1m in student loans. Collateral? Parents' house... He's an ER doctor now, so he can easily pay off his debt. He did say that it was going to take him at least 20 years to pay it off though. That's madness.

We had a bunch of career fairs at my school. If you listen to the reps, you can get a Masters in flip flop making and pull $200k a year making sand castles. Misinforming 20 something year old kids can have disastrous repercussions.

I just know that people defaulting on student loans is becoming more common in the US (which in turns affects your credit. If your FICO score is low, companies can refuse to hire you, you can't rent an apartment, can't buy a car, can't apply for a credit card... your life is pretty much fucked).

I don't know all the details since I paid for my tuition up front (only took out a small loan my last semester). I just know that unless you landed a job with Qualcomm or Northrop upon graduation (or if you did the ROTC path), chances are you'll be struggling to make ends meet for a long time.
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by TWY » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:31 pm

Don't try to normalize this practice. There's nothing normal about graduating from a university with a $50k debt (example). It's a school. Not a business (in theory). Unless you graduate in a STEM related field (and even then), paying off $50k while making $20/hr before tax and living in a city where a 1bedroom apartment goes for $1600 minimum is practically impossible. Given the current job market, going into debt for a bachelors degree is a very bad investment. Going into debt for a masters in political science or gender studies is an even worse investment. That being said, Philip Cameron Roth (name sounds fake as hell) needs to grow a pair
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Yes, and in the USA its a combination of less state funding of state universities, and the fact that its now not a non-profit but a business (factually they are still non-profit institutions but in reality they are businesses). The state funding piece is straight-forward. We don't support higher education as much as we did in the past and its a mistake. The 2nd piece has several pieces. Too many people pay attention to rankings and go to the highest "ranked" school regardless of cost. That has led many colleges/universities to pour money into facilities, experiences, fancy dorm rooms, perfectly manicured lawns and all sorts of stuff that doesn't make your education any better. They also have greatly expanded the bureaucracy. And let be blunt the pay at the top of that bureaucracy is insane and not needed. Throw all that together and the result is far too many people make a poor economic decision which impacts the rest of their lives. Rather than attending a local state school and graduating 15 or 20 grand in debt they are graduating from a school that for all practical purposes has provided them with the same education only at triple the cost. Yeah if you can get into Harvard take the loan - but getting into the 19th best school in whatever field is rarely worth the extra cost.

Now, in regards to graduate degress, my opinion is similar but a bit different. By the time you've graduated college you should be a bit smarter and for many people go to work for a few years. Then the question of graduate school comes down to opportunity and cost/expected benefits. A run of the mill MBA program won't open the doors a top 20 program will initially. So your paying for a ticket to the dance so to speak. Likewise, if your an engineer and want to pursue a NASA type research job, then MIT or Carnegie Mellon graduate degree is well worth the investment.

I have much less sympathy for the story you shared about an ADULT who chooses to go to medical school and rack up a million in debt than I do those that at age 18 get suckered into 50-100K undergraduate debt they may never be in a position to easily pay back. Heck, 10 years of medical school would indicate something specialized and that would usually include 3-4 years at a teaching hospital working as a resident - all the doctors I know of in that position got paid during their residency - not well (and they worked like dogs) - but they had money coming in and not out.

-----------


Just one last seperate comment. The whole "for profit" internet based colleges industry is one of the biggest scams in the history of the USA. I can state that I NEVER hired anyone that had a degree from an internet college - and that included for many low level manufacturing and warehouse positions that required a degree. If you ever meet anyone saying they are enrolling in xyz college and its strictly over the internet - tell them to run!` The whole industry exploded due to GOVERNMENT LOANS being easily available. We should cut down on the loans, increase support of state universities, gut the bureaucracy. The result would be more affordable schools and fewer people being suckered into taking out tons of loans for nonsense. Want to attend an out of state school to get a degree on being offended - fine - but you'll have to have mom/dad arrange the financing!
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by Queef » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:19 pm

The 2nd piece: People choose their school based on academics, but also sports. USC (University of Southern California AKA University of Spoiled Children) for example, has both. Play football at USC and you're good? Chances are you'll be playing in the NFL. Graduated from their MBA program? Merrill Lynch and JP.Morgan have a spot for you. Most people in LA county can't afford $75k a year for undergrad though. That's a deposit on a nice family house... The amenities are awesome though. I toured the campus and went to some parties there, and yea, it's worth the $75K a year. Academics? I'm sure you could get the same education at a community college (freshman and sophomore years) for a fraction of the price. You also have to keep in mind that you are more likely to have a better network at USC than at South Dakota State University. You also pay for that.
Getting into schools like Harvard doesn't guarantee anything. I know someone that went to Brown and was struggling to get a job. Employers don't want to pay top dollars just because of a fancy school name on resume.

Most graduate programs require work experience now (at least two years for the good programs). Like many people told me when I started school, it's better to do the first two years at a JC, complete the program at a state school (ie cal state system in California), graduate with a stellar GPA, then get a graduate degree from a better school (ie UCLA). Save money. Live better. Walmart.
I've also seen people obsessed with the name of the schools. Even if their department was among the worst departments nationwide, the name just propelled them into higher spheres and they were willing to do whatever it took to get into a mediocre program.

I never liked her brother. Know-it-all prick. He did get paid when he was doing his residency. It wasn't much though. Less than $3k a month. It wasn't not enough to pay off what he had racked up. During my freshman year, some guy came to our counseling class. PhD candidate at UC Riverside at the time. 40 something year old dude. $180k in student loans. His field of study was some kind of social science thing. Why isn't anyone telling that kind of people that it's time to stop? Why isn't the school warning people about the financial disaster they're getting themselves into? Oh right, it's a business.

The president of my university became the mayor of San Diego btw....

Devry University, University of Phoenix, and the other for profit schools are just disgusting. These schools are actually more expensive tuition wise than regular schools. They're also very easy to get into (which is perfect for desperate people). I've never worked with anyone from a for profit school. I don't think anyone takes them seriously. If you've been following the tribulations of Betsy Devos, you'll quickly understand why student loans and for profit schools are flourishing.
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by Arget » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:41 pm

I only finished year 11 at high school.
I have managed cattle properties in Australia with up to ten staff and several million dollars worth of stock and machinery.
I have had several years as an explosives professional in the construction industry and related fields.
I have had a career in top level government security and immigration fields that placed me in foreign lands .

I never needed a university degree. Just a lot of hard work and a work ethic to be the best at whatever job I took on.

I owe nothing to any government for my education in life skills.
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Re: Don’t fall for US jingoism

Post by DrRawBlueGreen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:34 pm

When it comes to education the whole world can learn from Finnland. They are already among the top countries, some years ago they were world champion if I remember rightly. Nevertheless they still try new technics. They teach what is needed theoretically and also prepare the kids for the real life. US has for sure some of the best Unis worldwide. But life is not all about a Uni degree for which you will pay off debts for the next decades.
“If the world was a girl, I’d stick my d..k in the ground. F..k the World.”

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