vladimir wrote:I think it's important to remember that the message in most religions is well-meant, but people screw it up in practice. There's not much in the old testament I have any time for and if average joe wrote revelations today, he would be tested for drugs. I don't think the hypocrisy you mention is limited to any one religion, MM, we get locals pushing people off their land in the morning, and the next day going to the pagoda.

I attended a church in Cape Town, eventually they found out the founder was banging a woman in the congregation, when she went public they expelled her. Eventually the con-man pastor ran away to America. I left before that happened, the whole thing was geared towards getting money, insisting on tithes, the pastor was living in luxury and some were living in squalor, but they were giving him money? wtf.

Again, I come back to consistency. There's no consistency in the Bible. Mainly because it was written across a large period of time and the individual books were chosen by committee, some relevant texts were left out (apocrypha), some weren't considered(gnostic texts), some weren't around to be considered (Book of Enoch for example)... because Jesus was Jewish, the first half is God's message to the Jews, which Christians seem to treat as a pick and mix for their own prejudices. They hate gay folks but don't make menstruating women stay in bed and deny them washing facilities during their periods... for example.

Then you have the second act, where everything has changed. Jesus comes with a message of hope and love. I agree there's a powerful teaching in "Love thy neighbour" but it's kind of ruined when John sees the world being laid to waste to satisfy the petty god of the Old Testament.

You can't say the book offers a consistent message because it doesn't. That leaves plenty of ways to interpret what should and should not be done. It's perhaps no coincidence that the two Abrahamic faiths of the Middle East (Islam and Judaism) are firm supporters of circumcision because in sandy places... sand in there is going to hurt. Christianity, a religion which originates in the Middle East but was brought to the forefront in Europe, has no such prohibition mainly because most people aren't desert dwelling... but the covenant is still in The Bible. It's clear that circumcision is the deal with god. It is ignored because it isn't practical and mutilation in today's world particularly is silly. But... Americans tend to circumcise their kids with no good reason anyway. (And please don't quote that ridiculously discredited study about AIDS and circumcision - it's balls, the foreskin is there to protect the penis and as long as you wash properly... it's a good thing not a bad one).

And so on...

You do not need faith to be a good person and having faith does not prevent you from being a lousy person. I'm not sure why a message of peace, love, tolerance and decency cannot be secular rather than religious.

Jesus debunked

Yeah, the foreskin thing, perhaps God is gay, we never hear about Mrs. God come to think of it.

I personally see most of the OT as propaganda written as justification for plundering/rape/murder/land-grabbing/genocide.

Perhaps some idiot mis-heard, and the Frozen People went west to Palestine instead of north to the Arctic, LOL.

sorry this is the jesus debunked video..

vladimir wrote:New thread inspired by Rain Dog's comments on another thread.

They totally supported apartheid in South Africa by supporting white minority rule. Google the Nederlands Reformed Kerk (NGK) what we called The Dutch Deformed Church, using Christian dogma to undermine any opposition to apartheid. Tutu and others who saw through it were labelled communists. The shame of the church.

Have they done/are they doing the same in your country? They were either quiet or actively supporting colonialism in India and many other colonies.

Personally I find Christian theology irrational -- the entire notion of the need for "Original Sin" and a "Trinity" just never made sense. The trend towards dispensationalism and all the literalness and opportunity for Manipulation that comes with it, makes matters that much worse.

That said ... it is a matter of faith .. and to each his own as long as he is not harming others. Believing in "something" is still better than the void that gets filled when people believe in nothing.

I think it is a bit unfair to single out any one faith or ideology as being "Bad".

People will find ways to do evil under the name of any ideology.

"Peaceful" Buddhists slaughtering ethnic Tamils in Sri Lanka and Muslims in Myanmmar.

Jews exhibiting the most horrific forms of racism and brutality against Palestinians (And Arabs and Muslims in general) in the name of Israel.

Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims willing to commit extreme horrors upon each other over a 1400 year old political dispute.

Christians constantly supporting war and "Veangance" as well as exploiting their "First World" wealth advantages (Gained from the most usury based societies in the world) to "Collect Souls" from those less wealthy.

Hindus in India where Gang Rape seems to be the national past time.

None of these examples are enough to condemn ALL people within any group ... nor the specific religion outright.

That said, Humans can take ideas based on the best of intentions and use those ideas to commit the worst horrors.

Cheers,

RD

When I looked into Christianity, the first thing that amazed me was that everything Jesus actually said in the New Testament , was later put to a vote , and then mostly ignored or depreciated by all flavors of Christianity. It's like claiming that you dedicate your life to blindly following a belief and then ignoring the main guy in favor of later interpretations.

The specific that I like to use when I debate Christians, is to ask them what prayer did Jesus specifically state is more important than all others and that he said should be repeated daily. They immediately go for the bait by answering 'our father, who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name...', since that's what their ministers/priests probably taught them. Shit, even if you google 'christian prayer', google will give you the same above answer , in a box above the search results.

Thing is, Jesus never said anything about heaven, or father, or hollowed name, nor any of the rest of that prayer when asked what is the most important prayer. All that was completely made up centuries later, and what Jesus actually did say, was ignored. No respect.

The whole religion is founded on one lie after another , each one easily unmasked too, but eh, who cares. So yeh, ministers rewrote Christianity.

If you wanna see what actually J Man said, http://biblehub.com/mark/12-29.htm

NickyNY wrote:The specific that I like to use when I debate Christians, is to ask them what prayer did Jesus specifically state is more important than all others and that he said should be repeated daily. They immediately go for the bait by answering 'our father, who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name...'

Yeah, they're stupid those Christians.

Of course many of them would pick that your little test there asks about "which prayer" and your response relates to "which commandment" - even heathens and athiests understand the difference, although you clearly don't.

If you wanna see what actually J Man said, http://biblehub.com/mark/12-29.htm

Although you do get points for linking to an actual scripture.

Here's a few you might like to look at, which would explain why those Christians who seemingly fail your silly little test give the response they do - to a question about prayer, not commandments.

Matthew 6: 9-13
Luke 11:2-4

See the difference there, Sparky? JC was teaching His disciples HOW to pray - acknowledge God, thank Him for what we have, ask for what we need, ask for forgiveness predicated on our ability to forgive others.

Edit:

NickyNY wrote:Thing is, Jesus never said anything about heaven, or father, or hollowed name, nor any of the rest of that prayer when asked what is the most important prayer. All that was completely made up centuries later, and what Jesus actually did say, was ignored. No respect.]

Actually, if you're going to use the scriptures to try and demonstrate that Christians are idiots, at least do yourself the favour of reading some of it first. The two links I gave above might give you a clue as to why you should do this...

Respect.

Stroppy gets marks for restraint/rationalism, threads on capitalism on cheesemonkeys.com draw bannings.

This is the difference here.

vladimir wrote:Stroppy gets marks

Is this the apocalypse? Are you messing with me in some obscure Saffer way?