At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by horace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:42 pm

I'm still not persuaded by dagger's conviction, although I did notice the islamic hate in Strops post earlier which Raindog quite rightly picked up on.
Stroppy you need to defend yourself and answer the questions raised by both poster in my opinion.

Failure to answer will only validate dagger's conviction .
Raindog you are the man , if what you said about the Indonesian bird is true and I don't doubt it isn't, my hat goes off to you and i might just throw some karma your way.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by Rain Dog » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:47 pm

StroppyChops wrote:
General Mackevili wrote:
Rain Dog wrote:
3) Dagenham's queries on the specifics of your relationship with CoC remain unaddressed to this day.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm sure we'd all be interested in having this addressed.
You mean more than this: https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/viewtop ... 453#p14453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?

Sure. Why not.

We're not and have never been members of the denomination called the Church of Christ. We attended a Church of Christ fellowship for four months while we were transient and preparing to leave Australia, as that was the local church.

I would be completely comfortable to be a member of the Church of Christ (Australia) - it is not related to the so-called cult that is criticized here, in the same way that the Baptist Church in Australia is a completely different and unrelated organization to, say, Southern Baptists in America.

As it seems of huge interest here, I was a Missions Director for an Apostolic congregation years ago, and we were Missions Coordinators for a Baptist congregation more recently.

The senior pastor of the Church of Christ took an interest in our personal project (free education in Cambodia) at a humanitarian level and after checking us out was happy to endorse us to the local churches in Cambodia, pray for us and bless us - this is the "commissioning as missionaries" mentioned earlier, as seen in the New Testament. It's a scriptural check and balance to make sure you don't end up with unknown self-appointed missionaries creating havoc.

No membership, no financial support. Not now, not ever.
Fair enough -- our posts just crossed. So of the questions I had (see my post above), you have answered the first two. Even though they seem quite inconsistent with what I know about how Evangelical groups operate, I am more or less willing to take your reply at face value.

The other three questions:

1) Do you have any mission accountability at all to CoC or for that matter any other evangelical groups?

2) o any of your activities involve teaching or referencing the Bible and/or Jesus?

3) Do any of your activities potentially involve baptising potential new converts?
Last edited by Rain Dog on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dagenham
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by dagenham » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:03 pm

StroppyChops wrote:
General Mackevili wrote:
Rain Dog wrote:
3) Dagenham's queries on the specifics of your relationship with CoC remain unaddressed to this day.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm sure we'd all be interested in having this addressed.
You mean more than this: https://cambodiaexpatsonline.com/viewtop ... 453#p14453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?

Sure. Why not.

We're not and have never been members of the denomination called the Church of Christ. We attended a Church of Christ fellowship for four months while we were transient and preparing to leave Australia, as that was the local church.

I would be completely comfortable to be a member of the Church of Christ (Australia) - it is not related to the so-called cult that is criticized here, in the same way that the Baptist Church in Australia is a completely different and unrelated organization to, say, Southern Baptists in America.

As it seems of huge interest here, I was a Missions Director for an Apostolic congregation years ago, and we were Missions Coordinators for a Baptist congregation more recently.

The senior pastor of the Church of Christ took an interest in our personal project (free education in Cambodia) at a humanitarian level and after checking us out was happy to endorse us to the local churches in Cambodia, pray for us and bless us - this is the "commissioning as missionaries" mentioned earlier, as seen in the New Testament. It's a scriptural check and balance to make sure you don't end up with unknown self-appointed missionaries creating havoc.

No membership, no financial support. Not now, not ever.
Thanks for that. Sincerely.

So...I truly don't get it, Stroppy. Clearly the above states unequivocally that your faith is your life and that your life is your faith. Period. Sure, you might have a beer or two, but to believe that you are here solely for "secular" teaching and nothing more sounds ludicrous. And that the project is even called a "mission" and that you are a "missionary" yet you insist, over and over, to call it a 100% secular "humanitarian" effort is clearly inviting a massive dose of healthy scepticism. The CofC couldn't care less if you so any "conversion" work and just teach anything at all without regard to spiritual matters? Really? That's not what their website says...that's for sure....

Why are you here with the sponsorship (blessing, whatever) church for alleged secular teaching? No school demands that type of sponsorship - unless it is faith based. Is the school, in fact, supported and funded by the CofC? If not, who runs that school? Your story just doesn't add up. At all. Your being deceptive here about either intent or end-goal with that fog bank of "secular humanitarian" rhetoric.

You would rather impart nuggets of knowledge rather than save someone's soul from eternal damnation? Drop the "buddy in the bar" gig for one minute and divulge why you are really here? If it was for purely volunteering on a grass roots ("no strings attached") level why do you, or anyone for that matter, need a church's blessing (and none of its $$ and conversion agenda)?

Just come and do it - like others are doing right in Cambodia now as we speak. No church on earth doesn't have its own spiritual agenda - that's why they're an organization after all - to grow. And missionary based churches? Spread the word - convert - grow. And destroy all other faiths in their wake...
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:11 pm

Thanks for the feedback Horace - I appreciate that you give it as your opinion. Respect.

"Islamic hate" ... clearly this is the perception I've unfortunately given. Let me ask this, if I or any other Christian proposed that the clergy of the Catholic Church never raped children, what sort of reaction would that invoke? Would those that disagree be called bigots and Christianophobes? Odd that that isn't even a word, yet we can throw Islamophobe around quite readily.

Quite simply I wasn't aiming to tear down Islam as a nation or a religion, I disagreed with specifics in DBTH's OP, mostly that Islam has an untarnished reputation. How I expressed that was not my shining hour on CEO, but I'll own the fallout. As stated, I have great respect and admiration for DBTH's response to me, he clearly was following his creed more closely than I.

In all honesty, do you think that responding to dagenham will ever invalidate his opinion?
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by dagenham » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:12 pm

horace wrote:I'm still not persuaded by dagger's conviction, although I did notice the islamic hate in Strops post earlier which Raindog quite rightly picked up on.
Stroppy you need to defend yourself and answer the questions raised by both poster in my opinion.

Failure to answer will only validate dagger's conviction .
Raindog you are the man , if what you said about the Indonesian bird is true and I don't doubt it isn't, my hat goes off to you and i might just throw some karma your way.
Fair enough. My only true conviction is a blanket hatred and disgust for all missionaries of all colours, shapes and sizes.

And I think that all religions, spare none, are simply stories for insecure human beings. If they were only that and nothing more I would be more tolerant of their existence. But, of course, they are usually agents of death, destruction and division, as well as fostering personal well-being for the weak which is fine.

The most articulate spokesperson for my thoughts on religion is Bill Maher. His movie "Religulous" says it all - it is witty, insightful and informed. A must see - especially for the religious folk.
Winston Churchill said, "Have a cigar, a glass of brandy, pet your dog and get a blow job daily for a productive and fulfilling life"
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by EdinWigan » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:14 pm

Is this all about 'Churches of Christ' or 'Church of Christ' they appear to be different, according to the Google God.

I think all this boils down to the simple fact of:

Dagg's - not into the whole God thing

Strop's - Into the whole God thing

Nothing wrong with either but 'Pushing' secret agendas, if that is what is being done, irks folk.

Rain Dog - generally interested in the whole debate thing.

Others - Somewhere between interest and apathy

Risk, this whole thing will continue to descend to a personal level and damage the spirit of CEO, pushing it back to the old forum days.

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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by Rain Dog » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:14 pm

horace wrote:I'm still not persuaded by dagger's conviction, although I did notice the islamic hate in Strops post earlier which Raindog quite rightly picked up on.
Stroppy you need to defend yourself and answer the questions raised by both poster in my opinion.

Failure to answer will only validate dagger's conviction .
Raindog you are the man , if what you said about the Indonesian bird is true and I don't doubt it isn't, my hat goes off to you and i might just throw some karma your way.

Thanks Horace ---- yep --- it's true. Sort of like a Romeo and Juliet opera ---- but ironically families on both sides of the divide were totally cool about it -- including Irish Catholic Grandparents on my end and her Imam Mosque leading father on her end.

The problem was we could not get our own shit together -- in hindsight more me than her ---- but that is life: hindsight, learning, regret and trying to move on.

There is probably some cautionary tale about intercultural/interracial relationships in that story, but as badly as it turned out I would not trade it for anything (I would certainly handle things differently though). The learning process and personal development process was invaluable.

And yes -- the Muslim bashing crap can set me off some times as I was directly impacted by it.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by Kung-fu Hillbilly » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:41 pm

Dags - "The most articulate spokesperson for my thoughts on religion is Bill Maher. His movie "Religulous" says it all - it is witty, insightful and informed. A must see - especially for the religious folk."

Although I like Bill Maher's movie and himself ,I'd suggest Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris tower above Maher in relation to eloquence and insightfulness. Lawrence Kraus is another.

Do watch their debates on youtube. Just a taste to follow.



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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by horace » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:45 pm

Cool, it would seem that we are settling down now and better defined opinions, thoughts and beliefs are becoming clear. As for me I don't believe unless really stoned. However , i have an older sister who was one of the first female vicars in England, silly cow!
I'm kinda with Gandhi on this one and if there is a god then it must be the same fucking god for everybody, if there is a god. When really stoned I tend to take the Gaia view , google it ,or my own personal view which is "everything I do I do for myself, to make myself happy , if it makes me happy to help people then i help people, never once has it made me happy not help someone and never has it made me happy to hurt someone, although it did feel good at the time and some people just deserve to be hurt.
I don't know any of you guys but wouldn't mind meeting and drinking with you, so introduce yourselves when the opportunity arises.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:46 pm

Rain Dog wrote:Fair enough -- our posts just crossed. So of the 4 questions I had *see my post above), you have answered the first two. Even though they seem quite inconsistent with what I know about how Evangelical groups operate, I am more or less willing to take your reply at face value.
Okay. I know you get that I'm not looking for your endorsement, but I appreciate that you're offering an olive branch, RD.

What I am and what I am doing here is definitely inconsistent with the evangelical movement as you or I know it. In short, because I don't like the way it operates, and in particular how it operates in developing countries with an indigenous population that is ill equipped to respond in any way other than "I must make bong happy".

For that matter I don't like organized religion and how it works in general, because you're absolutely right, it's a mass control tool rather than a faith. We attend a local church here in PP (as opposed to an expat bunker) that operates in Khmer for Khmers. As a concession it does offer a translation service by FM radio which gives the university students an opportunity to practice their English interpreting.

We do not lead, or preach, or suggest, or convert. It's not our place.

However I obviously have no such compunction about talking about what I believe here, and the posters who have socialized with us will tell you I'm the same in person. Do I Bible bash? No. Do I say what I believe at an appropriate moment? Absolutely. Do I demand that others agree with my beliefs? Not ever.

1) Do you have any mission accountability at all to CoC or for that matter any other evangelical groups?

No. If I acted inappropriately I would be asked to stop attending the local church.

2) o any of your activities involve teaching or referencing the Bible and/or Jesus?

No. I am not yet teaching here as we are formally learning Khmer for at least six months. A church-related organization that I may volunteer some time at offers free English lessons without strings or obligations, but displays a poster that advertises classes about Christianity. The poster is not referenced in the English classes, ever, but gives a Khmer contact for interested people. I would not be involved if there was more to it than this.

I will not be teaching these Christianity classes - I am neither needed or suited.

3) Do any of your activities potentially involve baptising potential new converts?

The local church we attend offers baptism, but we are not in any way involved. I believe in baptism, but I am not a pastor/minister/leader here and have no intention of serving any of those roles, so categorically, no.
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