At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

If you have something so weird, strange or off-topic to post and think it doesn't belong in any other forum; you're probably right. Please put all your gormless, half-baked, inane, glaikit ideas in here. This might also be a place where we throw threads that appear elsewhere that don't belong ANYWHERE end up, instead of having to flush them. FORUM RULES STILL APPLY.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by dontbelievethehype » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:43 pm

Hello All,

just to set the record straight about something I saw on the first page of this thread. There is no, and I mean absolutely NO link between the teachings and moral codes of Islam and those "mercy" killings. Those killings are done by ignorant individual cultures (ie. lots done in backwards azz Pakistan). Once again, it has nothing to do with what is in the Qu'ran, the teachings, the history, yada yada yada, etc.....

The list of lies that are held as truths about Islam are staggering.

The whole 72 virgins thing, not a single mention in the Qu'ran about that. There is some mention of being so above worldly desire, that even though you could have 72 wives, you are not interested in them, or something to that effect.

Here is the real head scratcher and should make everyone think differently about what they are constantly being told. Guess what, suicide bombers? Just who are these people?
I say this because of this. A real cursory, and I mean cursory and quick glance into the Qu'ran and what do you read about? The biggest sins that man can do. There are like five of em. Guess what number two is? Ready for this........

To commit suicide. It is like the BIGGEST sin in the religion. So, if one is a Muslim religious fanatic and follows the Qu'ran and teachings down to the absolute letter, does he commit suicide????
Another thing about these suicide bombings, besides some of the obvious high profile things we all know about, how about the regular reports of some nutter going into a toy store in Israel and blowing himself up. Or blowing himself and some teens crossing a street up. Or any of those endless reports we get. Well, just how effective are these acts strategically??? How about go after the Israel army bases, the Knessest goverment buildings, etc etc etc. Some real targets of value? You almost never hear about that, cuz it ain't happening. And why not??? And just when did this suicide bombing start? Was it going on in history before? Look it up.

There are also clearly stated rules for war listed out in the Qu'ran. The first one, don't ever kill innocents, ever ever ever. If you kill one innocent non combatant person, it is like you have killed all of humanity.

I do not blame anyone for having these pre conceived notions on what Islam does and is, and yes, there are some absolute nutters out there. But the mainstream media pretty much lies 100% of the time when it comes to a story about anything Islamic. Just a quick glance at CNN earlier and really Muslims should be up in arms and fighting mad about the slander and just downright untruths that are spewed out daily by these media outlets.

On a side note, somebody mentioning Jesus and a Muslim reformer earlier. Yes, for most people shocking, but just why exactly? Jesus (or Isa) as he is known in Islam, is HIGHLY revered as a Prophet. In fact, all the people that Christians hold so dear, Issac (Ishaq) Abraham (Ibrahim) Michael (Mikaeel), etc etc etc, they are all talked about and revered in Islam.

One more thing to think about, for 1400 years the Qu'ran and has not been changed at all. Not at all, not one word, letter, down to the puncuation marks. It was passed down orally as well from teacher to teacher. So just how was that done? Think about.. If you play chinese whispers with a group of ten people, the word at the beginning is completely different by the end. So how was it done with a 600 plus page book?
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:52 am

dontbelievethehype wrote:Hello All,

just to set the record straight about something I saw on the first page of this thread.
Hi! As this is your first post on CEO it appears you've created a new account to post about Islam, which is great. Incidentally do you usually post here under a different username? Just for clarity, and to address the issue that most CEO readers probably won't go back to the first page to review what you're referring to, here's thePeck's mention of Islam - and this appears to be the only mention of Islam on the first page.
thePeck wrote:I.e. In some Islam moral codes, regionally according to their doctrine. A raped girl must be killed unless her rapist marries her. The only way to maintain "her" and her families honor.
It would have been great for thePeck to have included a reference or citation of some sort, but clearly he chose not to and was probably citing 'common knowledge', something that happens often around here.
dontbelievethehype wrote:There is no, and I mean absolutely NO link between the teachings and moral codes of Islam and those "mercy" killings. Those killings are done by ignorant individual cultures (ie. lots done in backwards azz Pakistan). Once again, it has nothing to do with what is in the Qu'ran, the teachings, the history, yada yada yada, etc.....

The list of lies that are held as truths about Islam are staggering.
Does the Qu'ran not teach (33.33) that women should "stay quietly at home" so as to not excite men with their flesh, and that if they absolutely must (that is, "be compelled") leave the house, they should be covered completely with a chador or burqa (33:59), accompanied by a male family member of authority, preferably one openly carrying a sword? Was this interpreted in Saudi as forcing schoolgirls back into a burning building (and to their deaths) because they were not correctly dressed to leave the house?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't believe Saudi Arabia is in "backwards azz Pakistan".

Does Sharia law not state that unless a woman can provide the testimony of four adult males stating she was raped, she is considered to have committed adultery? Once such a women is imprisoned awaiting her punishment, does not the Qu'ran (4:3, 4:24, 23:6, 33:50, 70:30) state that she is considered halal for forced sex as a captive?

Did Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali not state that all Muslim men imprisoned for rape are innocent, as uncovered women are like meat that is left out for cats to eat - and this is the fault of the meat, not the cat? "If she was veiled and in her home no problem would have occurred."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6086374.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can you tell us a little about the 19 year old that was raped by seven Muslim men in 2006 and then sentenced to 90 lashes, only to have her sentence more than doubled for speaking to the international community - was her 'crime' something along the lines of being alone in a car with strange men, despite that the men entered the car against her wishes? She should have been quietly at home, right? This was overturned by King Abdullah after negative international media attention, wasn't it?

Still no link between Islam and rape?

I haven't been able to find references to seventy-two virgins/wives or suicide bombers on this thread or CEO in general, and I believe you may have conveniently overlooked the bit about jihadists being permitted to do whatever it takes (pay for sex, drink alcohol, whatever) to get through the day - which may at least in part explain the passion for jihads in modern times.
dontbelievethehype wrote:I do not blame anyone for having these pre conceived notions on what Islam does and is, and yes, there are some absolute nutters out there. But the mainstream media pretty much lies 100% of the time when it comes to a story about anything Islamic.
There are indeed some nutters out there, of every religion and creed and colour. Some shoot up schools in America. Some hand out Kool-aid. Some misrepresent the truth about their own and other religions. And yes, the media wants a story, often at the expense of the truth. Some times the truth makes a pretty compelling media story, too.
dontbelievethehype wrote:On a side note, somebody mentioning Jesus and a Muslim reformer earlier. Yes, for most people shocking, but just why exactly? Jesus (or Isa) as he is known in Islam, is HIGHLY revered as a Prophet. In fact, all the people that Christians hold so dear, Issac (Ishaq) Abraham (Ibrahim) Michael (Mikaeel), etc etc etc, they are all talked about and revered in Islam.
Not so shocking, I think it was mentioned before that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam share a common history - there is no academic debate around the shared Abrahamic origins of the three theologies. Google it, you'll find there's plenty of consensus.
dontbelievethehype wrote:One more thing to think about, for 1400 years the Qu'ran and has not been changed at all. Not at all, not one word, letter, down to the puncuation marks. It was passed down orally as well from teacher to teacher. So just how was that done? Think about.. If you play chinese whispers with a group of ten people, the word at the beginning is completely different by the end. So how was it done with a 600 plus page book?
Not really sure you're making the point you think you are here, unless you're hinting at divine provenance. I have no issue with that, I believe something similar myself although the scrolls from which the Holy Bible was compiled are a little more tangible than 1400 years of 'chinese whispers'. Happy to discuss - what was the point you were aiming for?
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by thePeck » Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:57 am

That was a long ass reply :-) hehe but I didn't cite references because I didn't think it necessary because of the forum. We're not in debate class.

An Islamic website stating there are countries that have a laws that allow it:
http://islamqa.info/en/72338" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The article about the infamous suicide in Morocco. Granted because it was under French rule and France did in fact have a similar law.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... icide.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Even Mosaic Law had the law:
http://www.sascwr.org/files/www/resourc ... e_Laws.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Algeria and Tunisia have similar law. Both French influenced. So you can reason it may have been because of the French. So let's blame them or Christians? Since it's in the Mosaic law? But these have been absorbed into Muslim culture still and have failed to correct it.
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/africa/this- ... e-victims/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A pretty good compilation of references about rape under Sharia Law:
http://www.aina.org/news/20081117111817.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ok I can do more using my phone lol

But even if you make the case that it was because of the French there still long standing precedence before that.

Mosaic law is the precursor to both Christian and Islam. So a law such as this can be assume to be in both.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:31 am

Nicely argued, thePeck. (We could just blame French Christians?)
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by Rain Dog » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:33 am

UhOh!

Just when I was starting to think Dagenham was full of crap and you were a decent everyday bloke (rather than the seething Christian Cultist Dag wants to make you out to be) you come out with a hater post like this --- with all the implied notions of Evangelical Moral superiority routed in a foundation of topical ignorance combined with an apparent lack of curiosity in actually learning about the topics discussed. Where to start?
StroppyChops wrote: Hi! As this is your first post on CEO it appears you've created a new account to post about Islam, which is great. Incidentally do you usually post here under a different username?
First, I think the implied suggestion of a sock-puppet reeks of the same paranoia that defines another forum. Furthermore since I am the only one here that ever mentions Muslims in a positive light it seems that such an accusation might be targeted at me. (Not sure why, but why would anyone want to create a sock-puppet for that type of post?). In case are you not aware there are MANY South Asian, Malaysian and Indonesian tourists that come to Cambodia. Most likely a potential visitor stumbled on to this forum, found a religious thread and wanted to add his two cents. BFD.
StroppyChops wrote: It would have been great for thePeck to have included a reference or citation of some sort, but clearly he chose not to and was probably citing 'common knowledge', something that happens often around here.
Yes, WTF is "Common Knowledge" --- blindly repeating ignorant propaganda? I also call BS on you for supposedly citing the Quran yet neither showing the exact words, linking to your source, nor even mentioning which translation you are using. You do realize the Quran is seen as only "Pure" in it's original Arabic and every translation is considered an interpretation? Their are many interpretations available and if I thought you were genuinely curious I could recommend you some. It seems like you are either copy pasting from a hate site as I doubt you took the time yourself to "research" all these verses you cite --- and let's faces it most evangelical interpretations of other faiths are nothing short of hate speech.
StroppyChops wrote: Did Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali not state that all Muslim men imprisoned for rape are innocent, as uncovered women are like meat that is left out for cats to eat - and this is the fault of the meat, not the cat? "If she was veiled and in her home no problem would have occurred."
First of all al-Hilali is a nutter with very little, if any, influence outside of one Mosque in Australia (a post he has long since abandoned).

Second of all he did not say "All Muslim men convicted for rape are innocent" you are either making it up or extrapolating it from his other words.

Third of all he was widely condemned by the Muslim Community for his remarks. Yet you still use this clown's words to "prove" a link between Islam and rape?

Fourth of all, There are MANY Christian preachers that preach crazy things. Here is just one:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Shall we follow your example and link All of Christianity to his words?

Also, spamming negative feedback from all over the 1.2 to 1.5 billion Muslim population is the classic model of abuse by a "Hater" . Granted there is no shortage of ignorance, stupidity, literalism and anger in parts of the Muslim world, but do you think these same things do not exist in other religions?. I could fill this forum with racist, hateful, intolerant rantings from various parts of the Jewish and Christian communities -- I would start with your post on this thread. Hell I even read on that idiotic KLMedia site, some nutter saying Buddha proscribed Khmers to fill the Mekong with Yuon bodies.

I tell you what. If you want to spam hate messages that is up to you --- in that case you have just revealed yourself as Dag was suggesting.

If you want to debate ANY of the topics you raised in your post earlier, I am up for it. Do your homework, because as can be seen on other threads I can be quite meticulous and prepared in presenting my point of view.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by dagenham » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:45 am

Seriously, Rain...wasted typing, my friend. Think about it.

SC is a militant missionary (albeit in clever "Gomer Pyle - As Shucks!" disguise) representing a cult whose sole purpose on earth is to convert non-believers from going to certain Hell.

Reasoned discussion with this foot soldier for Christ aint going to happen.

Ever.

Because for every argument you have comes Stroppy's standard: "The bible says..." or "Jesus told me...", et al...

Missionaries? Tar and feather and then deport I say...
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:09 am

Wow. This post, your PM, and the decrease in karma really surprise me, RD. Clearly this is something very personal to you for you to suddenly get so personal, but after reading back through my post I stand by it. Frankly I reckon your response is out of context and proportion, but that's what happens when religion (any religion) is discussed.

The question I asked the OP regarding another username has been asked of other first-time posters that make an impassioned or political first post. What is is that you're so offended at - that I would ask this of a Muslim?

I had no idea that you are the sole poster of positive comments about Islam, so I absolutely refute your comment that my post was aimed at you.

'Common knowledge' is any academic's way of suggesting, tongue in cheek, that the original poster (thePeck, in this case) should possibly have backed up a sweeping generalisation in some way - thePeck clearly understood this and responded in kind. You, however, went angry shouty.

I am genuinely offended that you so readily label me as a bigot/religious hater/evangelical whatever, based on my post in this thread or any of dagenham's misquotes and outright fabrications. You disagree with my post - that's fine, but debasing yourself to name calling shows your passion for the subject, not your rational response to my comments. "Hate speech" is a very big claim, it's right up there, and you're way over the line. I am very surprised that you, personally, would jump there so lightly.

What you know about my knowledge of the Qu'ran is nada. It would be arrogant for me to make declarative statements about your knowledge of the Bible, or any other text, and your comments here are highly arrogant.

I'm also curious to know in what part of my post, apart from the scrolls comment, I made ANY reference to Christianity as being greater than Islam.

This has obviously meant enough for you to decrease my karma, although as a courtesy I won't post your PM comments here - if that truly gave you any sense if satisfaction/retribution, decrease it again tomorrow, and the next day, until it's gone. Personally I only ever increase the karma of other posters, but you go ahead.
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by dagenham » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:36 am

Stroppy...reread your post..Mate...

You come across to anyone as arrogant, defensive and aggressive. And now a liar. In your latest post you outright deny coming across as "evangelical" - are you taking the piss here?

CoC, by its own definition is fundamentally evangelical...and, moreover, you listed as God's 11th Commandment to "spread the word (i.e. convert)" - which was highly suspect since there are only 10. Got some more for us - straight from God?

As a totally blind believer, you really are in major denial. Wake up...Brutha!
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by General Mackevili » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:49 am

StroppyChops wrote:... as a courtesy I won't post your PM comments here -
And as a rule on CEO.



Ok, carry on....
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Re: At the risk of triggering a religious flamewar...

Post by StroppyChops » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:51 am

General Mackevili wrote:Ok, carry on....
Carrying on, General!
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