Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam?

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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by StroppyChops » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:33 pm

LOL.
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by OrangeDragon » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:23 am

http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/dop ... d-fanatic/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by vladimir » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:25 am

Personally, I think OD could benefit from some Christian principals, (such as the other person may occasionally be right) whereas I am too far gone, the punnitis is no longer treatable. :lol:

Btw, where does gun control fit in with Christian beliefs? (stir-stir)
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by Rain Dog » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:49 am

StroppyChops wrote:Is the Secular World so anti-Christian, that it sways toward being pro-Islam?

There's an interesting little debate going on over at Debate.org at the moment that asks the above question.
http://www.debate.org/opinions/is-the-s ... -pro-islam

Here's a YES response from user soairist:
Yes. It is. The establishment of Islamic Courts in Europe prove that adherents to Islam aren't permitted to follow the laws of the State in which they reside. The fact that, in a Western Democracy, it can be ruled 'legal' for a male Islamic adherent to beat his wife is beyond atrocious; yet if a male citizen of the same State, who doesn't adhere to Islam, commits the same act, he will be charged accordingly to the laws of the State in which he resides. It is a double-standard that those who do not adhere to Islam have to endure. It is a situation whereby the Secular West is appeasing, and even supporting, the expansion of a religion in a predominantly non-religious region.
Here's a NO response from user jdatt2:
I find it to be the complete opposite At least here in the states, there isn't much of a "secular world." The U.S. is extremely pro-christian. To the point that separation of church and state no longer holds true. And it is extremely anti-islam. There were even billboards put up and groups created to convince others that ALL Muslims wanted to kill us all, etc. A mosque opened up in manhattan and people got together to protest it because it was too close to the world trade center. All religions are allowed some exceptions to the law. I don't like it but I don't really like a lot of law either. I do believe in religious freedom though and some rights which should be given to muslims are often mistaken as being pro-islam.

The problem with being pro-christian here is that we are also becoming anti-science. Which is funny because most scientists I know are christian.
This is of interest to me because when secular friends in Australia tell me that Australia doesn't need to be one religion or another, I'm usually more direct and forthright than they're used to me being. I tell them pretty straight, "Choose today whether you want Australia to identify as being Christian or Muslim." You cannot do nothing, if you believe you're choosing the none-of-the-above option, you're choosing a Muslim nation." Exactly as happened in KL a few years ago, which was previously an amicably three-religion state.

Thoughts either way?
So what are your thoughts?

I always laugh at the self-pitying churchy types who want to believe they are being persecuted by everyone. It seems like such a large segment of Christians thrive on self-pity and then project that into hate against whatever group it is currently politically correct to hate (Once Jews, Now Muslims). Reminds me of the whingers on Fox News wailing about the "War on Christmas" and blaming those "Eeeeeeevvvvil Mooooooslims" when in fact virtually all conflicts involving the role of Christianity in Public Affairs are raised by secularist or constitutionalist adversaries.

The problem is, it is not a laughing matter.

You Express some "surprise" at Taranis quotes:

"Its time for the new Crusade, and I am sure there will be more with us this time, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, Christians unite in the next Crusade. Lets push the Muslims from their lairs, lets push the Arabs back to Saudi Arabia from whence they came."

But actually his reply (Genocide) could be seen as a rational response by some if you truly believe the argument that your country and faith are under attack in the first place. Put another way, Hitler did not just wake up and decide to start randomly killing Jews. He exploited the fact that many German's in the late 1930s were suffering a huge identity crisis due to the humiliations imposed on them post WWI and the resulting takeover by "globalists" of German commerce and industry. The seeds of hate were already there (as they are in the forum "debate" you post). Hitler just exploited them and carried them out to what he viewed as the logical outcome ---- Ethnic cleansing with an engine of mass murder.

Think I am being unfair? Replace the words "Muslim and Islam" with "Jew and Judaism" in your original post and see how it reads
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by takeoman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:54 am

When it comes to the worlds so called religions the only rational response is "a plague on all your houses".
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by Rain Dog » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:06 am

StroppyChops wrote:Is the Secular World so anti-Christian, that it sways toward being pro-Islam?

Here's a YES response from user soairist:
Yes. It is. The establishment of Islamic Courts in Europe prove that adherents to Islam aren't permitted to follow the laws of the State in which they reside. The fact that, in a Western Democracy, it can be ruled 'legal' for a male Islamic adherent to beat his wife is beyond atrocious; yet if a male citizen of the same State, who doesn't adhere to Islam, commits the same act, he will be charged accordingly to the laws of the State in which he resides. It is a double-standard that those who do not adhere to Islam have to endure. It is a situation whereby the Secular West is appeasing, and even supporting, the expansion of a religion in a predominantly non-religious region.
This particular argument (above) is so weak that it really does not deserve any critique. A couple of Gross Propaganda points (common among the hateful, fearful, intellectually weak, and the lazy) can be addressed here:

1) Islam does NOT teach that it is ok to beat your wives. If you care to debate that point I am up for it.

2) The uproar over Sharia courts in minority Muslim countries is just pathetic. They do not take precedence over civil law and they only cover family and domestic issues like divorce and inheritance. They do not cover criminal law. Essentially they are like "Family Courts" for those who want to have family disputes (and sometimes business disputes) resolved according to the principles of their religion. Singapore for example is Majority Bhuddist/Confucist and run by a minority Christian elite but has a Muslim minority of about 15%. Islamic Shariah courts have existed for decades without incident.
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by Rain Dog » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:28 am

Joon wrote:I didn't have a religious upbringing so I'm very much ignorant about religions' history and I'm a hopelessly lousy Buddhist.
But the secular experience in France has been perceived rightly or wrongly ( that's another issue ) as anti-Islam. The French law establishing a secular State aimed at treating all religions equally and at preventing discriminatory treatment based on religion.
So it forbids the ostentatious display of one's religion at public schools and in public. Concretely, a Catholic girl was free to wear a cross at school as long as it was small enough to be hidden or go unnoticed. On the contrary, a Muslim devout girl was "ostentatiously displaying" her religion if she was wearing a scarf.
That led to a number of girls being expelled from schools for following their faith.
While it was the law, it was de facto impeding religious freedom. So in this particular case, secularism was very much perceived as anti-Islam.
This is a good point although I would go a step further and say that many of the "supposed" efforts at secularization are in fact just disguised attempts at harassment of Muslims. I cannot speak specifically to the French example but most of these types of arguments originally start out in places (Using England for example) such as the EDL and BNP which then get picked up on by opportunistic politicians and repackaged as "protecting our secular roots".

Think of the big controversies:

1) Religious identity --- targeted at Muslim head coverings --- "but wait does that mean Christians cannot wear crosses? --- No problem we will limit to headwear and not cover Jewelery so we are safe ... Oops now we still have a problem -- do we ban religious Jews from wearing skull caps in schools? --- OMG that is antisemitic! -- Damn this religious bigotry in law stuff is tricky --- how can we target Muslims without having others get caught up in it? Afterall we do not want to look discriminatory -- I mean that is not secular"

2) Halal ---"It's brutal --- those poor cows, sheep and chickens getting their throats cut all because of those evil Moooooslims" Let's get rid of "Halal". Oops --- big problem. Halal is the exact same process as Kosher (only the prayers are different). In fact some Halal/Hosher slaughter houses employee BOTH Rabbis and Imams so as to simplify the distribution process. So do we target Kosher too? We cannot do that -- it's antisemitic. Damn -- so how do we do this without appearing to be the haters we are?"
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by dagenham » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:43 am

Religions are for the weak. They exist to assert control over large segments of the population. They create nonsensical "rules and laws", they seek tithing to bleed the poorest of the poor, they often threaten the non-believer, they often rationalize violence and conflict toward any "other", they condone aggressive "conversion" tactics under the banner of salvation...

If the general populace was highly educated (and, of course, they never will be) religions would play a very minor role in the ordering of societies. Ignorance, fear and shame are the engines of "blind faith".

Love, harmony and caring can be expressed exclusive of any belief system. Just be a good human being. Simple.

Obviously, with religions or not we will always continue to seek to dominate and slaughter each other. We have to. Population control - there aren't enough natural disasters. So it goes...
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by The Add Jay » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:46 am

dagenham wrote:Religions are for the weak. They exist to assert control over large segments of the population. They create nonsensical "rules and laws", they seek tithing to bleed the poorest of the poor, they often threaten the non-believer, they often rationalize violence and conflict toward any "other", they condone aggressive "conversion" tactics under the banner of salvation...

If the general populace was highly educated (and, of course, they never will be) religions would play a very minor role in the ordering of societies. Ignorance, fear and shame are the engines of "blind faith".

Love, harmony and caring can be expressed exclusive of any belief system. Just be a good human being. Simple.

Obviously, with religions or not we will always continue to seek to dominate and slaughter each other. We have to. Population control - there aren't enough natural disasters. So it goes...


Coming from a guy who is hooked on pain killers and hookers.
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Re: Sunday: Are we so anti-Christian we're turning pro-Islam

Post by Rain Dog » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:48 am

StroppyChops wrote:Is the Secular World so anti-Christian, that it sways toward being pro-Islam?


This is of interest to me because when secular friends in Australia tell me that Australia doesn't need to be one religion or another, I'm usually more direct and forthright than they're used to me being. I tell them pretty straight, "Choose today whether you want Australia to identify as being Christian or Muslim."
First of all there are no truly Christian Countries in the world currently. That is countries that are run based on truly Christian teachings. The Philippines probably comes the closest and that country is a basket case. I would easily take Indonesia or Malaysia instead. Western democracies are built on SECULAR democracies and BOTH the failures and successes of these societies are largely attributable to this fact. The economies are based on Usury and social darwinism (an anathema to both true Christiantity and Islam) dominates. The USA for examples was largely founded as being anti-Christian although lip service was given. The creators of the intellectual framework (Constitution, Bill of Rights) included Deists (e.g., Jefferson, and FreeMasons (E.g., Franklin). There is a reason our currency reads "In God we Trust" and not "In Jesus we Trust".
StroppyChops wrote: You cannot do nothing, if you believe you're choosing the none-of-the-above option, you're choosing a Muslim nation." Exactly as happened in KL a few years ago, which was previously an amicably three-religion state.
Per my comments about Genocide and Hitler in my previous post, your words here are both extreme and dangerous. They also remind me of G W Bush and his famous "You are either for us or against us" mantra.

You say "you MUST choose" otherwise the default choice is against "us" (as Christians). Directly implied is "Choose Christian AGAINST Muslim" as they cannot coexist in your world.

Choice implies action ... so Choose WHAT exactly Stroppy?
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