Interesting post Rain Dog.

I know very little about American groups, never been something that I've studied in any detail.

Unlike, I suppose most people, I've read the Bible from cover to cover because I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything, and spent a lot of time in the past trying to understand many of the mysteries therein and checking up historical and archaeological stuff too. It's quite easy to detect the phonies and the wackos, not always immediately, but there are enough clues to illuminate any observant reader.

I personally think that most people have very little idea of the contents, and would be quite shocked by how completely out of kilter many large churches are, particularly the blending of paganism, ritual and apocryphal writings.

I've not studied any of it now for about 11 years, however, there is no escaping it, we live in interesting times.

Joker Poker wrote:Interesting post Rain Dog.

I know very little about American groups, never been something that I've studied in any detail.

Unlike, I suppose most people, I've read the Bible from cover to cover because I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything, and spent a lot of time in the past trying to understand many of the mysteries therein and checking up historical and archaeological stuff too. It's quite easy to detect the phonies and the wackos, not always immediately, but there are enough clues to illuminate any observant reader.

I personally think that most people have very little idea of the contents, and would be quite shocked by how completely out of kilter many large churches are, particularly the blending of paganism, ritual and apocryphal writings.

I've not studied any of it now for about 11 years, however, there is no escaping it, we live in interesting times.

No specific criticism against you. in fact i appreciate the civility of your post this time. However, I think one problem, with today's Christians and Muslims is that both have many followers who think they can take a book, read it cover to cover, and think they understand the religion. Most religious texts are simply stories with a lot of Allegory in them that are trying to make sense of events of the time. Some like possibly Dags, might dismiss them as superstition. I tend to believe that most are in fact divinely inspired but flawed by humanity's limits on comprehension. That said, I think moral guidance can be gleaned from these --- IF efforts are made to get at the context of the writings and their underlying meanings. Most people are however ill prepared to do this and opt for easy literal interpretations instead, especially if there is an undercurrent of blaming others that can be folded in.

I once participated in a discussion group with some very religious Christians including one aspiring Catholic Priest. He made a very good point which some of the Eastern Orthodox participants strongly agreed with, and that is that for all the rightful criticisms of Christian religious institution (like the Catholic Church) they still played a role in preserving spirituality and proper guidance rather than let people run amok making up their own interpretations as they go along. Sadly this is true when talking about many of the well funded Charismatic groups that have evolved out of the dispensationalist movement; and all sorts of weird but well funded interpretations are created. John Hagee is a case in point. Most of his Christianity centers on Israel and Jesus's "return" to Jersalem. Dig further and surprise, surprise, he gets huge funding from far right Israeli groups including (I believe) his own plane (I might be confusing him with Pat Robertson they are basically the same). So when Israeli war drums are beating for an attack on Iran -- guess who is out there first with a book arguing that red moons are prophesied in the bible and some how connects that to Iran must be attacked or Israel's future will be in doubt at this critical "Red Moon Eclipse time". It may be easy to dismiss Hagee as a nutter but his group CUFI has 1.3 million members in the USA and they are well financed and very politically active.

So centralized "control" of religious knowledge inherently corrupts (as in the Catholic Church) ---- but the "figure it out yourself by reading the bible" approach to religious knowledge is possibly even more dangerous as it enables the likes of Charismatics like Hagee to exploit the gullibility of millions.

There are no easy answers.

But a good place to start is to look first at whatever groups WE belong to rather than rushing to smear others.

Cheers,

RD

beaker wrote:I think you only need the golden rule:
do to others as you would have them do to you
that's all the religion needed

That is certainly a great place to start.

beaker wrote:I think you only need the golden rule:
do to others as you would have them do to you
that's all the religion needed

Yep. That is simple, direct and, if followed, why do we need all the silly ceremonies and temple building and prophet constructing and...

Who needs all those conflicting stories, guidelines and conclusions? I liked your post, RD, as it was very reasoned and calm. And yes, I think all religions are essentially "superstitions" and there is no real "divinity". Who has the right to claim "divinity"? From where? For who exactly?

Divinity requires faith and faith can be (and is often) manufactured to rationalize negative behavior towards the "others". Divinity and faith are imposing and loaded terms that have no shared definition and, from my perspective, create much more discord than harmony.

Of course, I am in the minority. The vast majority of people are frightened by "reality" (who can blame them?) and need all these "religious trappings" and fanfare to fortify themselves to wake up and face the following day.

A crutch. Just like booze and drugs. Self-medicating for the often brutal challenges of being human in society. Aint nothing changed for as long as we have been here...

Just wake up and "do to others as you would have them do to you". Succinct. True. Universal.

Rain Dog wrote:

beaker wrote:I think you only need the golden rule:
do to others as you would have them do to you
that's all the religion needed

That is certainly a great place to start.

I beg to differ, RD. It's a great place to start, carry on and finish as well. The rest is irrelevant and divisive.

Brother dagenham, forget about all those homos. Let's go on a pilgrimage journey together.

Rain Dog wrote:
No specific criticism against you. in fact i appreciate the civility of your post this time. However, I think one problem, with today's Christians and Muslims is that both have many followers who think they can take a book, read it cover to cover, and think they understand the religion.

Thanks.

It's not as superficial as that. I almost always post short things else nobody will bother to read them, it's just too long-winded if I try to fill in all the details. FWIW, anyone who just opened the Bible and attempted to read it from cover to cover would almost certainly give up way before they finished the OT.

However, once you start to peel back the first layer of the onion it becomes apparent that there are many many more. Wheels within wheels. A lot of people get hung up on easily explained red herrings, others fail to understand that there are very different types of writings therein.

Funny how a crazy thread like this gets me thinking about stuff that I've not really thought about much in years.