Phnom.Penh dialect

Have questions or resources regarding Khmer Culture? This forum is all about the Kingdom of Cambodia's culture. Khmer language, Cambodian weddings, French influence, Cambodian architecture, Cambodian politics, Khmer customs, etc? This is the place. Living in Cambodia can cause you to experience a whole new level of culture shock, so feel free to talk about all things related to the Khmer people, and their traditions. And if you want something in Khmer script translated into English, you will probably find what you need.
User avatar
Bitte_Kein_Lexus
Expatriate
Posts: 4421
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:32 pm
Reputation: 1325

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by Bitte_Kein_Lexus »

Jamie_Lambo wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:23 am that was our point? so what arent we getting exactly?
I mean that you guys seem to imply that Phnom Penh has a multitude of dialects. I'm saying those dialects come from various regions in the countryside and aren't in any way associated with Phnom Penh. What you're hearing isn't Phnom Penh dialect, but Siem Riep/Pailin/OddorMenchey speak. People born and raised in Phnom Penh speak a pretty flat/neutral Khmer. I've never noticed anything remotely "special" about it. So my point is that PP doesn't have a multitude of accents, but it's newest inhabitants bring with them their own accents, which are then willingly or not smoothed out into the "standard Khmer", which is what people born and raised here speak. Or maybe I'm not understanding you guys and we're saying the same thing?
taabarang wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:39 pm It's nice to have a new voice join a language topic and BKL has strong opinions which merit thought. While I disagree with some in the main I feel there is much food for thought there. When we talk of dialects one of the qualities I associate with it is accent. This came primarily from my 6, almost 7 years of living in Germany. Where I spoke both Hoch Deutsch and Berlinerish. In fact
acquiring the later dialect by ear was an unintended but useful preparation for learning Khmer in which I am totally illiterate.

So then what is a Phnom Penh accent? What phonetic variations exist that allow one to say He or she must be from The. Big Stink? I think prior to the Khmer Rouge capture and subsequent resettlement there was one. I am going to talk with my mother-in-law who had and still has much extended family there to find out if she thinks there are or were unique linguistic features of Phnom Penh speech.
That's what I'm saying, there is no Phnom Penh accent. It's just standard Khmer, the same as Hoch Deutsche, Metropolitan French and so on. I'm assuming it's been a while (army brat?), but what do you remember about living there? Did you ever meet someone from Schwaben, the North or Sachsen (eastern Germany in your time)? My German was definitely good enough for pretty much any topic back when I lived there, but when I met some older folks from Saxony, they were almost totally incomprehensible to me (and to a lesser extent, many Germans in my region). Some of the lingo I picked up was also quite weird for non-Swabians to understand. Would you not say they actually ave dialects compared to Khmer? Spanish also has way more differences: not only Spanish and Latin Spanish, but the various words used (street, car etc) and accents (Argentina). French as well with Metropolitan French, Quebec French, Maghrebian French, Sub-Saharan French... They'll understand each other for the most part, but the differences are way more staggering.

So whereas Khmer has a few tiny differences in accent, English/French/Spanish/German regions will use totally different words which aren't mutually intelligible with totally different roots. Those are true dialects. The differences now are way smaller because of globalization and standardization, but they're still there. I don't think my Khmer is better than my German was at the time, but I've rarely had serious trouble understanding people here and I've been to every province more times than I can count (one of my passions). Khmer is a rather homogeneous language and I've never heard of a Khmer having trouble understanding another Khmer person because of vocabulary, accent or grammatical differences. The opposite is true for English, French and German (and surely many other languages). The only thing I've ever noticed is a bit of a "singing" quality to some regions. I'm fairly certain that even Khmer scholars or linguists would have trouble categorizing regional accents to a map because the differences are too small. Khmer Leu and Khmer Krom being obvious exceptions. It's not like you ever hear Khmer say: "Oh, she sounds like she's from Odor Menchey/Prey Veng" or something. The only one they ever mention is Siem Riep. I bet if you asked a Khmer to identify where another comes from by their accent alone, they wouldn't be able to tell. Do the same with an Englishman and they likely will.

Regarding the pre-war thing, I'd be curious as well. One thing which might date to before the war (and accents) is the Chinese influence, such as calling an older person "ii" ("eee"). It's sometimes used in the countryside, but from what I gather is much more common in the city between those of Chinese ancestry.

Anyways, it would be interesting to hear from Khmer regarding this.


[EDIT] Sorry, another 20 page post. It seems I only post one liners if on my phone or novels if on my laptop...
Ex Bitteeinbit/LexusSchmexus
User avatar
Jamie_Lambo
The Cool Boxing Guy
Posts: 15039
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:34 am
Reputation: 3132
Location: ลพบุรี
Great Britain

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by Jamie_Lambo »

Bitte_Kein_Lexus wrote: Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:09 am
Jamie_Lambo wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:23 am that was our point? so what arent we getting exactly?
I mean that you guys seem to imply that Phnom Penh has a multitude of dialects. I'm saying those dialects come from various regions in the countryside and aren't in any way associated with Phnom Penh. What you're hearing isn't Phnom Penh dialect, but Siem Riep/Pailin/OddorMenchey speak. People born and raised in Phnom Penh speak a pretty flat/neutral Khmer. I've never noticed anything remotely "special" about it. So my point is that PP doesn't have a multitude of accents, but it's newest inhabitants bring with them their own accents, which are then willingly or not smoothed out into the "standard Khmer", which is what people born and raised here speak. Or maybe I'm not understanding you guys and we're saying the same thing?
taabarang wrote: Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:39 pm It's nice to have a new voice join a language topic and BKL has strong opinions which merit thought. While I disagree with some in the main I feel there is much food for thought there. When we talk of dialects one of the qualities I associate with it is accent. This came primarily from my 6, almost 7 years of living in Germany. Where I spoke both Hoch Deutsch and Berlinerish. In fact
acquiring the later dialect by ear was an unintended but useful preparation for learning Khmer in which I am totally illiterate.

So then what is a Phnom Penh accent? What phonetic variations exist that allow one to say He or she must be from The. Big Stink? I think prior to the Khmer Rouge capture and subsequent resettlement there was one. I am going to talk with my mother-in-law who had and still has much extended family there to find out if she thinks there are or were unique linguistic features of Phnom Penh speech.
That's what I'm saying, there is no Phnom Penh accent. It's just standard Khmer, the same as Hoch Deutsche, Metropolitan French and so on. I'm assuming it's been a while (army brat?), but what do you remember about living there? Did you ever meet someone from Schwaben, the North or Sachsen (eastern Germany in your time)? My German was definitely good enough for pretty much any topic back when I lived there, but when I met some older folks from Saxony, they were almost totally incomprehensible to me (and to a lesser extent, many Germans in my region). Some of the lingo I picked up was also quite weird for non-Swabians to understand. Would you not say they actually ave dialects compared to Khmer? Spanish also has way more differences: not only Spanish and Latin Spanish, but the various words used (street, car etc) and accents (Argentina). French as well with Metropolitan French, Quebec French, Maghrebian French, Sub-Saharan French... They'll understand each other for the most part, but the differences are way more staggering.

So whereas Khmer has a few tiny differences in accent, English/French/Spanish/German regions will use totally different words which aren't mutually intelligible with totally different roots. Those are true dialects. The differences now are way smaller because of globalization and standardization, but they're still there. I don't think my Khmer is better than my German was at the time, but I've rarely had serious trouble understanding people here and I've been to every province more times than I can count (one of my passions). Khmer is a rather homogeneous language and I've never heard of a Khmer having trouble understanding another Khmer person because of vocabulary, accent or grammatical differences. The opposite is true for English, French and German (and surely many other languages). The only thing I've ever noticed is a bit of a "singing" quality to some regions. I'm fairly certain that even Khmer scholars or linguists would have trouble categorizing regional accents to a map because the differences are too small. Khmer Leu and Khmer Krom being obvious exceptions. It's not like you ever hear Khmer say: "Oh, she sounds like she's from Odor Menchey/Prey Veng" or something. The only one they ever mention is Siem Riep. I bet if you asked a Khmer to identify where another comes from by their accent alone, they wouldn't be able to tell. Do the same with an Englishman and they likely will.

Regarding the pre-war thing, I'd be curious as well. One thing which might date to before the war (and accents) is the Chinese influence, such as calling an older person "ii" ("eee"). It's sometimes used in the countryside, but from what I gather is much more common in the city between those of Chinese ancestry.

Anyways, it would be interesting to hear from Khmer regarding this.


[EDIT] Sorry, another 20 page post. It seems I only post one liners if on my phone or novels if on my laptop...
yeah i think we are saying the same thing but in a different way lol :thumb:

and agree with your opinions of the "dialects" its one thing that makes British English so interesting is the vast differences in all the different true English dialects

after a few years of living here, i thought i could roughly tell the differences between SR, PP, SHV, but the longer ive stayed here and the more people ive met, its much harder to tell than i originally thought,
i still think down here in Kampong Saom they do tend to Roll their R's a lot more than other places ive visited, and when chatting to, say a bargirl in PP i can often tell they arent actually from Phnom Penh originally, but i wouldnt be able to guess exactly which province they came from, as you mentioned, theres not much clear differences to be able to pin point a certain place
:tophat: Mean Dtuk Mean Trei, Mean Loy Mean Srey
Punchy McShortstacks School of Hard Knocks :x
taabarang
Expatriate
Posts: 3858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:49 am
Reputation: 978
Location: Outside of Kampong Cham city
United States of America

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by taabarang »

I need to backtrack to the unmentioned origin of my question. Francois Bizot, the author of The.Gate, acted as the unofficial translator between the Khmer Rouge and French embassy staff. At one point he identifies a young KR cadre as having a Phnom Penh accent. Hence my curiosity about the rather short history of linguistic evolution of Khmer in Phnom Penh between approx. 1975 until today.

Conversations with my mother-in -law weren't particularly fruitful. Her main conclusion was that the distinctive quality of Phnom Penh speech was that it was more polite in the pre Pol Pot period than it is today. So, I'm still searching for what it was that Mr. Bizot heard that has apparently disappeared from contemporary usage.
As my old Cajun bait seller used to say, "I opes you luck.
User avatar
Username Taken
Raven
Posts: 13897
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 6:53 pm
Reputation: 5962
Cambodia

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by Username Taken »

taa, here's a 6 page pdf you might find interesting. As I couldn't cut and paste it, I have made an image of the opening para

Image

Source: http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/p ... 01note.pdf
taabarang
Expatriate
Posts: 3858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:49 am
Reputation: 978
Location: Outside of Kampong Cham city
United States of America

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by taabarang »

Hey thanks for that UT, it looks intriguing. Unfortunately I can't download on this phone. I'll have to see if front40 will let me use his phone. lol.
As my old Cajun bait seller used to say, "I opes you luck.
taabarang
Expatriate
Posts: 3858
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 7:49 am
Reputation: 978
Location: Outside of Kampong Cham city
United States of America

Re: Phnom.Penh dialect

Post by taabarang »

Dammit, I found a phone and downloaded it, but I can't open it.
As my old Cajun bait seller used to say, "I opes you luck.
Post Reply Previous topicNext topic
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ot Mean Loi and 147 guests