Never trolling, but i will set people like Bingham up now and again, and may even follow through if I feel particularly nasty. Which is almost never. You like violence - I gave you violence, but you didn't seem to like that kind. Society generally only likes the violence it likes - boxing, retribution, stiletto in the eye of an OAP - you know - that sort.Kuroneko wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:04 pm
Why should I need to do that? Your beginning to sound like a pesky teacher. What issue have you with the wiki summary, which I think is quite adequate for a forum reply. Did you read the summary, which draws on the book, a Historical Dictionary of Ho Chi Minh City by Justin Corfield. This is quite a reasonable source.
On his discussion about the Chinese in Vietnam around page 58 Corfield notes:
The collapse of the Ming Dynisty caused a large migration to Vietnam in the 1630's and 1640's and what is now Cholon became a large Chinese town, later merging with Saigon.
On his discussion of the origin of Cholon around page sixty he notes:
Although there had been a settlement there for many centuries, the origin of Cholon came from the Tay Son Rebellion, a peasant uprising in Vietnam from 1769 until 1802
The wiki summary (below) is quite succinct and seems fairly accurate. If one needs more detailed information on Cholon you can read Corfield a Historical Dictionary of Ho Chi Minh City p60-62.
The Vietnamese name Cholon literally means "big" (lớn) "market" (chợ). The Chinese name (and original name) of Cholon is 堤岸 (pronounced Tai-Ngon in Cantonese and Dī'àn in Mandarin, which means "embankment" (French: quais). The Vietnamese reading of the Chinese name is Đê Ngạn, but this is rarely used. Vietnamese speakers exclusively use the name Chợ Lớn, while Chinese speakers (both inside Vietnam and in China) are the only users of the original Chinese name.
In 1778, the Hoa (Chinese minority of Vietnam) living in Biên Hòa had to take refuge in what is now Cholon because they were retaliated against by the Tây Sơn forces for their support of the Nguyễn lords. In 1782, they were again massacred by the Tây Sơn and had to rebuild. They built high embankments against the flows of the river, and called their new settlement Tai-Ngon (meaning "embankment" in Cantonese).
I know your just trolling, but rather than ignore you I thought the extra information might be of interest to someone. Incidentally my ex wife is Vietnamese Chinese from Cholon
The history I quickly scribbled above is the version that seemed most likely as to the origin of the name Saigon after reading countless sources and translations. Of course, you'd prefer to believe anything than what I say. That's entirely up to each reader. You're coming across as the teacher as you wanted to disavow what I already said.
The Tây Sơn rebellion is a very interesting period of Vietnamese history indeed. One can look at it as the first socialist rebellion. One of those f'in Nguyens got away to Cambodia and later came back to fuck it all up again. Whatever those crazy yanks want to think, the Tây Sơn bros were the first to unify the WHOLE of Vietnam.
I may try and find the history to the name Saigon, but you probably wouldn't believe it if I did. As I noticed you left out all the Wiki references to Saigon meaning the Kapok tree, firewood etc which used to grow in what was later called Cholon. Meh.