frank lee bent wrote:some real hairsplitting morally vexed mongers here isn't it?
I think the basis of the argument is that they are afraid of inflation by those with more money than their very good selves.

I think that is exactly right. I lived in Pattaya for a while in the '80's and most of the expats and visitors then were either German or American and generally good people to get along with. The girls working in the bars were also for the most part genuine. This started to change probably in the mid '90's with the influx of retirees often from the UK, and unlike their predecessors they were not very generous with the girls and focused on "cheap sex". These guys resented anyone who was in any way generous with tips for the girls as they felt it a threat to their access to low cost sex. One of their oft used mantras if someone gave a substantial tip was "their spoiling it for the rest of us" I must add a point of clarification here I am not suggesting that all these retirees were of the same ilk but just a significant number to have an adverse effect on the bar scene as a whole.

These people were later followed by equally low class younger guys who regarded the girls as "low class whores" The result, the better class girls left the bars and started making contacts on the internet leaving the bars to be progressively filled by low class tarts whose main interest was to scam money of the equally low class customers. Another effect of the changing customer demographic was because of the generally despicable behaviour of these customers the Thais started to despise them and eventually other foreigners.

When I moved to Cambodia to work in 1996 there were few "western style" nightlife venues however for the most part the girls were very genuine and similar to what I experienced in Thailand in the '80's. This "genuineness" is still the same in many cases although its starting to change with the greater influx of foreigners looking for sex at the cheapest price. This started to occur ever so slightly around ten years ago and has been increasing ever since. The girls recognise these type of customer and usually refer to them as "cheap and short" The problem is that while girls make the differentiation between classes of foreigner now, it could well escalate to a general hate of foreigners per se and these people will adversely affect Cambodia in the same way they did Thailand.

^ Excellent post Kuroneko!

I think Kuroneko's post is pretty much spot on. What I find the saddest part of what I regard as the Pattaya I remember is that everyone was there for a good relaxed time. With the influx of mass tourism there is now an element who feel getting drunk, aggressive and fighting is all part of the ideal holiday experience. That never used to be the case, even when the U.S. Military were in town 20 years ago, they policed themselves, sure they got drunk but they were great fun got into the party spirit and it created a great atmosphere.

I have a slight issue with one point, I would argue that the influx of long term retirees has actually caused the decline in the quality on a purely superficial level in the bars. Thousands of girls have achieved an economic status way beyond their dreams that wasn't there 20 years ago, and good luck to them. As the good looking girls have been snapped up by the highest bidder what is left is a bunch of mediocre looking girls with mediocre attitudes who seem to assume that we will also all fall over ourselves in bearing gifts as we vie for their attention. Hence the bad attitude when we don't.

I have no vested interest in these comments either way as that side of nightlife it's all tired and boring to me now, other than its always a shame to see a place you love deteriorate from my own perspective as a result of mass tourism. Selfish to an extent I realise.

many women in many countries would not countenance going with a cheap bastard where there is no long term future.

i have had very satisfactory friendships in strict secrecy with more than one allegedly "respectable" girl.

in no case has my payment been refused.

one commented " i feel weird"

she got used to it though.

there are MANY young women with a kid or 2 who are really on the shelf.

they dont go to walkabou and gsm but they are everywhere you go.

just a matter of getting to know them a bit.
a discrete word where no one notices to pop the question- then giver her space to think.

being kind is a pretty big thing too.

they are damn grateful in my experience.
but i target a different demographic now i know ppl.

FB is a great hookup place.
you can be quite blatant about your intentions on FB- in my experience- they are shocked then very curious.

many of them never "try" barang before.

strange but true stories from the crypt.

Frank Lee Bent, you're creepy. You freak me out.

creepy and old.
i got it all covered.

Very insightful. Thanks kuroneko.

frank lee bent wrote:creepy and old.
i got it all covered.

An otherwise nice bloke though!

Does your FB-account have a profile picture, frank?